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 Orks tactics against IG, i need help...

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Chuchosky



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Join date : 2010-10-17
Age : 40
Location : Spain

PostSubject: Orks tactics against IG, i need help...   Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:06 am

Since tlrb 6.0 ive played 8 games against IG, orks only won 2 of them, but with heavy losses (in the last one played yesterday i won, but i end the game with 4 officers and 5 recruits OOA, while the IG only losses 3 of his mens). With tlrb 5.1 against the same player at the start of the campaign ork rules, but after some battles squads get closer as IG get better stuff and higher BS having very good games. Actually i dont know what to do, in every game orks get heavy losses, not reaching hand to hand combat in most of the games, and when manage to get in hand to hand combat and take OOA the enemy, the orks are killed w/o cover. Sincerelly, i dont know what to do.

Ive tried to aproach hiding, dont work, he move to high ground and can see my orks
Ive tried to move as fast as posibble, dont work, he have soo many firepower
Ive tried to get heavy armour with my officers, 3 of the 4+, and the boss 3+ and lucky charms, but dont work, he shoot many times, get a lot of hits as he have high bs (most of his soldiers have 4, some 5), and half the time he injury me is a critical hit (yesterday he kill my boss with 2 wounds with a sigle shoot of an autogun, he dont need very good rolls, a 3 to hit, a 6 to wound and a 5 in crit, thats hurts)
I discarded a firefight since he have much better bs and much better longrange weapons
Only say that my officer with more enemies take OOA is the sneaky boss with an heavy stubber

And things are going worst since his skills and xp habilities are betters than orks.

Sincerelly, any idea, i need help and dont know what to do??

He have more or less:
Capt bs 5 ws 4 bolt pistol, bolter, power glove, save 3+
Liut bs 4 with plasma
Liut bs 5 longrifle + sniper skills and sniper stuff
2 hevay stubers bs 4 and 5
Ogryn with chainsaw
Sgt with t4 w3
the others wear autoguns.lasrifles and usually bs 4

Any help??
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Mordheimer



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PostSubject: Re: Orks tactics against IG, i need help...   Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:48 am

First of all... thanks to your observations and critiques (as well as your opinions, suggestions, desires and ideas) we had to go to the drawing board in some aspects. So YOU caused the last Ork revision (hehehe... thanks!) and now we are tightening some of the Core Rules. KEEP IT UP!

* Hiding: This is what we are revising. You will like.
* Moving Fast: Only good if you are moving out of his LoS. Rather go 'slow & steady' behind walls and terrain.
* To many shots: Get out of Rapid Fire range (12")!
* Criticals: Bad luck for you. You better go cry to DaBank... he is the unluckiest guy I know.

On his Squad...
Capt bs 5 ws 4 bolt pistol, bolter, power glove, save 3+
I think you mean a Power Fist, but that means that this guy ALWAYS goes last... except when he assaults, in which he goes on his Initiative. This is a Rare 9 item... hard to find. ALSO very expensive (45 credits)

Liut bs 4 with plasma
Plasma WHAT? Does he has the SKILL Weapons Training, Plasma? This is required! He does not have the Skill, can't use it. This is a Rare 8 item... hard to find and it costs 30 credits. He hasn't blown himself up? This thing Get's Hot... so there is a 16% chance of failure PER shot.

Liut bs 5 longrifle + sniper skills and sniper stuff
OBVIOUSLY he needs the SKILL Weapons Training, Sniper to use the Long-Las. This is a Rare 9 item, that costs 45 credits.

2 hevay stubers bs 4 and 5
In TLRB v0.6.0 these were 45 credits.

Ogryn with chainsaw
Ogryns can't have Chainsword NOR Buzzsaws (only the Renegade Ogryn can). BTW... the Ogryn costs 72 credits.

Sgt with t4 w3
Those are some puñetero rolls. In 8 games, which you have won 2, this guy should have accumulated 12 XP... lets say 16. This means he got 6 advances... those are very weird odds. He got lucky.

the others wear autoguns, lasrifles and usually bs 4
By 8 games... DUH!



What gets me is that SOMEHOW (gato encerrado!), this guy has beaten the mathematical odds. How are you rolling for Rare Items? You are supposed to SAY what you want, then roll. So if your Captain is looking for a Lucky Charm (Rare 6), you call it then roll. If you roll a 5, you don't get the Lucky Charm NOR you can buy a Helmet (Rare 3). If you rolled a 10, you can't go and buy a Power Fist (Rare 9). Are you guys rolling Post-Game together?

Then is the amount of money this guy is investing... sure, by game 8 you can see some of this stuff, but you indicated that this has been like this (disparity) very early on. If you start your Squad with an Ogryn, your IG Squad is SUPER small. Orks will run over them with ease. Then the average earning potential is 80 credits, usually to recover losses. If he looses and average of 1 Recruit (WAY BELOW AVERAGE) then that leaves him ~50 credits to spend. He is buying 'normal' gear (Rare 5 or less) like candy... Helmets, Armor, etc... but those cost an average of 24 credits. Not only you have to FIND them, but also pay for them. Something is weird.

Without seeing documentations on game statistic (losses of Fighters and Equipment, game results) as well post-game rolls (to determine income potential), it is VERY hard for me to believe that anyone could be THAT lucky. It is mathematically possible (I think) but is so unlikely that I would be inclined to say that you guys are doing something wrong (very possible, since you guys are translating the book to Spanish) or that someone is doing some Cheese .



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Chuchosky



Posts : 192
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Age : 40
Location : Spain

PostSubject: Re: Orks tactics against IG, i need help...   Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:23 am

First of all... thanks to your observations and critiques (as well as your opinions, suggestions, desires and ideas) we had to go to the drawing board in some aspects. So YOU caused the last Ork revision (hehehe... thanks!) and now we are tightening some of the Core Rules. KEEP IT UP!


Thanks to all of the staff for the hard work you are doing, i dont want to make bad critiques (maybe someone can understand that because my enclish isnt very good) only try to make observations and/or suggestions. (in this case only want ideas to win). Truth me when i said that i congratulate you for that work.
In this post i only asquing for new ideas for my tactics, to see what im doing bad or what i can do better

* Moving Fast: Only good if you are moving out of his LoS. Rather go 'slow & steady' behind walls and terrain.

I tryed to move out of LOS, but when is imposible or i need to move for hand t hand, his firepower decimate my orks, and isnt for lack of terrain, as you know we play en dense urban terrain. Last game we make jokes about my orks, they are hiding all the time, I feel that my orks are soo fragile LOL .

* To many shots: Get out of Rapid Fire range (12")!

I tryed to move out of LOS when posible, but I must get near to engage in close combat ... im an ork!!!, i must attack in hand to hand ... my firepower is low ... so is the only way to take him OOA

* Criticals: Bad luck for you. You better go cry to DaBank... he is the unluckiest guy I know.
Still think is too easy get a critical hit, and that is an advantage for shooting squads that roll many times, nor hand to hand squads, but im not trying to change anything in this post, only asking for new ideas for my tactics

Capt bs 5 ws 4 bolt pistol, bolter, power glove, save 3+
I think you mean a Power Fist, but that means that this guy ALWAYS goes last... except when he assaults, in which he goes on his Initiative. This is a Rare 9 item... hard to find. ALSO very expensive (45 credits)

Orks Ini is 2 or 3, so he attack first when charging (Ini 4), and usually no one alive to counterattack LOL . But its a strong guy, thats ok, i writte his squad only asking for help to fight them Very Happy .

Yes he have the skills for use specials weapons, and we make the post battle together. And his T4 W3 is his promoted, and yes, he was veryyyyyy lucky in this case :-(

What gets me is that SOMEHOW (gato encerrado!), this guy has beaten the mathematical odds. How are you rolling for Rare Items? You are supposed to SAY what you want, then roll. So if your Captain is looking for a Lucky Charm (Rare 6), you call it then roll. If you roll a 5, you don't get the Lucky Charm NOR you can buy a Helmet (Rare 3). If you rolled a 10, you can't go and buy a Power Fist (Rare 9). Are you guys rolling Post-Game together?

Then is the amount of money this guy is investing... sure, by game 8 you can see some of this stuff, but you indicated that this has been like this (disparity) very early on. If you start your Squad with an Ogryn, your IG Squad is SUPER small. Orks will run over them with ease. Then the average earning potential is 80 credits, usually to recover losses. If he looses and average of 1 Recruit (WAY BELOW AVERAGE) then that leaves him ~50 credits to spend. He is buying 'normal' gear (Rare 5 or less) like candy... Helmets, Armor, etc... but those cost an average of 24 credits. Not only you have to FIND them, but also pay for them. Something is weird.

Without seeing documentations on game statistic (losses of Fighters and Equipment, game results) as well post-game rolls (to determine income potential), it is VERY hard for me to believe that anyone could be THAT lucky. It is mathematically possible (I think) but is so unlikely that I would be inclined to say that you guys are doing something wrong (very possible, since you guys are translating the book to Spanish) or that someone is doing some .

He dont start with the ogryn, but with the 2 heavy stubbers.


As we make rolls together i dont think he is doing

Rarity and credits??, remember that he won 6 of the games with a lot of superiority (some without casualties OOA), and lost 2 with few casualties (i think he lost (dead) only two recruits in the campaign, but not sure). Wining and with 6 officers, isnt difficult get 100 cred for game or more, thats is more than 800 cr + extra credits for wining the scenario, thats a lot of stuff furthermore if he usually dont lost soldiers.

And rarity??, Yes we do as you say, he was lucky and get promoted fast (in the 2nd game) so in 8 games he had 46 rolls for rarity to get (bolt pistol, plasmagun, longlassrifle, helmet, caparace armour, buzzsaw, power glove, and something for the longlasgun that i dont remember the name) are a lot of rolls for 8 items, he dont need to be very lucky.

Maybe as you say we are doing something wrong, specially me, that im loosing Very Happy . Your numbers works with me, that must replace troops every game, but not for someone without serius losses.
Im agree that he have that stuff, and the way he get it, i only want ideas to him

2 hevay stubers bs 4 and 5
In TLRB v0.6.0 these were 45 credits.

They worth it, and at the start of the game isnt too much, are very powerfull, more in good hands (heavy stubber with bs 5 is a true problem for me ). As i said, my sneaky bought one and actually is my best unit.

Ogryn with chainsaw
Ogryns can't have Chainsword NOR Buzzsaws (only the Renegade Ogryn can). BTW... the Ogryn costs 72 credits.

Here we could make an error, but in page 58-59 of squads book say that you can use it

the others wear autoguns, lasrifles and usually bs 4
By 8 games... DUH!

A new recruit usually level up each 2 games, so in 8 games they could make 3 or 4 advance rolls. As you know with 2d6 the more % roll is a 7 = +1 BS, isnt dificult to get more BS.
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tendi



Posts : 187
Join date : 2010-07-11

PostSubject: Re: Orks tactics against IG, i need help...   Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:25 am

to Mortheimer's re


moving fast

without any answer to ig firepower [even starting squad can easily start with 14-15 models with rapid fire weapons] and there is no problem with doing with them slowly fullbacking execution lines. And even on dens terrain it is more then easy to do. My test of orks hiding/running toward ig/eldar fireing lines always end in only 1-3 models reaching enemy i never give up. my only hope is to roll good postgame and i em lucky bastard with not getting my ooa models killed

but no matter what i do looses are always horrendous and 1 bed aftergame and squad is crippled



ogryn with chainsaw

in current version of ig ogryn CAN have one. it is in their depot with ogryn only star. even if it is long ego spotted error it is by available rules viable combination [same as h stubbers available from game one]



rarity and value

with 6 officers or 5 officers and dice for winning, excluding resource pendulums, game special rewards, multiple exploration dice effects squad, squad easily earn 90 - 110 credits. including excluded much more. so when you happy with your squad numbers, suffer minor looses, dont have to much of HG to drag your income down what is a problem to spend 50-80 credits for fancy stuff? you are not a nice guy and dont give your recruits 6+ armor [they have cover saves and are not meant to do cc] or swap their autoguns for lasguns. you buy fancy stuff and with 6 rolls from your officer what is the problem to roll 8 or 9? non. you only need 1-2 good ones. when they hit with first rolls you use other for minors like charms, helmets and other. no? so you spend it on no rarity items or consider buying fancy model and hello ogryn!




Chuchosky is right. Current orks with trash to no starting equipment, rare kustom blastas, nothing to shot, are meh against any shooting squad.... so against any other. And Kroots kick they buts in combat.


my 3 cents.
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Chuchosky



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Join date : 2010-10-17
Age : 40
Location : Spain

PostSubject: Re: Orks tactics against IG, i need help...   Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:54 am

Tendi, i dont want to ask for changes for orks squads in this post, there are other post to do it, only want ideas from another orks, to know their experience and what they do to win against IG (or others shooters squads)
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Mordheimer



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Location : Elizabeth City, NC (USA)

PostSubject: Re: Orks tactics against IG, i need help...   Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:22 am

I understand that my Hermano Chuchosky, nor Tendi, are not demanding/asking/suggesting any changes to the Orks. They are just making nice observations. Lets look at this from such angle for a moment. Maybe the design is weak. The fact that I have not seen it does not mean that there are no issues. Shocked Let me start a thread for suggestions, so we remain on topic here.


On topic, your friend is so far up on that bell-curve that something IS weird. You mention that he had 48 chances to get those Rare Items. Well, TECHNICALLY he had 42 chances (the last game does not count, as anything he got then did not affected THAT game!) A roll declared to find something Rare 9, is a roll 'unavailable' to find something else. So after the first game, he decides to go crazy and look for high power weaponry. After game one, with no losses, he could had made (on the high end of luck) 120 credits. This is ULTRA rich. Mathematically speaking, if he declared that he wanted to look for Rare 9 Item from the 1st Officer, he should had missed the first two Officers for looking for other stuff. No Helmets, Armor, etc that had ANY Rarity with those two Officers.

He is spending his cash on more Recruits. but the AMOUNT of Rare Items you can have (in his case 5) is the limitation. Money is usually secondary. Again, the mathematical odds of finding and buying all the ultra rare stuff is pretty low AND it is compounded with looking for easy, yet rare, items. Something is VERY weird.

On Tactics... ENTRENCH yourself. Get close to the objective and PARK your culito! He needs to get closer, and then you jump on him! Get the Power of the Waaagh! (or Banner). Don't allow HIM to dictate where are you moving.

_________________
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The Mordheimer - Death Squads' Chief Editor & Ninja Designer. Bursting with ARACHAS' Dev-Powah™! Puke
Can't wait until someone invents a time machine so I can go to the specific day in the past that I volunteered for this, so I can kick my own ass.

Support Bacteria; it is the ONLY culture some people have!
Since I ask "What do you think?" to all Staff, I have included it here to save time.

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tendi



Posts : 187
Join date : 2010-07-11

PostSubject: Re: Orks tactics against IG, i need help...   Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:57 am

Ch. That was only replay for Mord aproach that something must be fishy or weird while it is normal and happens all the time.

As for strategy play over aggressive. When number of ooa models hype up go on and target enemy officers and specialist to allow enemy voluntary rout only with his most precious models ooa.

Add 2-3 pea-shoota grots for any 24" shooting. Target elevated enemy models and keep your grots in cover for save with "small target" bonus

Throw off kommandoz [you dont want to go at enemy with 2 waves and be shot twice with full volume of fire. ]

Go on all out with burnas. More is better. Have tlgt new officer? If roll skill give him burna. You dont need bs for flamers. Can auto hit multiple targets so force enemy to put his models wider so it is a chance one will to far away to support other.

Exploit sneaky boss. H stubber one is good. But with bolter with telescopic sights and scale share surfaces skill is better. 30" treat range. Go elevated ad pick out enemy officers and specialist. Go for their overall credit value to cripple enemy income.

Go in big wave but remember to always have cover. Put some nearly naked boyz on front [2 clubs] to do meat shield thing but remember to get them cover. If You have to use m shields as cover. Even knocked/stunned model gives cover with radius of his base.

Follow up with burnas. And officers in the back.
For officers go with chain choppas if you can. If not clubs.
Over equip Your boss. Klaw. Chain choppa. Armors. Charm. And all skill put on survability. Prey for +T and +W bonus with them and decent equipment start using your boss as fire magnet. Put him on the front and run toward enemy and look how much fire it can soak.

Always protect your dok. Never send him to fight. Hide him in corner and let him be. He dont need eq use this credits in other place.

Smile
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Chuchosky



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PostSubject: Re: Orks tactics against IG, i need help...   Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:39 pm

As for strategy play over aggressive. When number of ooa models hype up go on and target enemy officers and specialist to allow enemy voluntary rout only with his most precious models ooa.

Thats what i TRY to do :-(

Add 2-3 pea-shoota grots for any 24" shooting. Target elevated enemy models and keep your grots in cover for save with "small target" bonus
I do this too, ive got 3 grots, 2 with peashoota and one to go with the boss. The 2 shoters go with the sneaky to be its shield, making a good fire group.

Throw off kommandoz [you dont want to go at enemy with 2 waves and be shot twice with full volume of fire. ]

Go on all out with burnas. More is better. Have tlgt new officer? If roll skill give him burna. You dont need bs for flamers. Can auto hit multiple targets so force enemy to put his models wider so it is a chance one will to far away to support other.

Ive got 2 burnas and no komandos, not have cred for the third, but trying to buy it

Exploit sneaky boss. H stubber one is good. But with bolter with telescopic sights and scale share surfaces skill is better. 30" treat range. Go elevated ad pick out enemy officers and specialist. Go for their overall credit value to cripple enemy income.
I did that, but with the new heavy stubber i think is better with it

Go in big wave but remember to always have cover. Put some nearly naked boyz on front [2 clubs] to do meat shield thing but remember to get them cover. If You have to use m shields as cover. Even knocked/stunned model gives cover with radius of his base.

Follow up with burnas. And officers in the back.
For officers go with chain choppas if you can. If not clubs.
Over equip Your boss. Klaw. Chain choppa. Armors. Charm. And all skill put on survability. Prey for +T and +W bonus with them and decent equipment start using your boss as fire magnet. Put him on the front and run toward enemy and look how much fire it can soak.


Thats what i do, the same meat shield, the overequiped boss, etc... but dont work :-(, never :-(. The worst is that when you make good moves and he is unlucky and you reach the closecombat and win, all your fighter stand w/o cover as easy target :-(.

In the last game i must reach one of the corners of the table with one of my officers, despite heavy loses i manage to get close to the exit zone and my first victory since the first game, "only" betwen my officers and the victory was his captain (overequiped) and his ogryn , hard, but i must try. He place them in the midle of clear terrain, with all my shooters OOA he was fearless... I charge with all i have ready, 2 officers (another officer arrive in the 3rd turn of combat) ,2 orks and the boss, while my last flamer wound the ogryn. The fight last for 3 turns (i think orks are good in combat, now not sure), i take ooa both of them, but i lost 1 orks and an officer . Now was his turn, lots of orks in clear, w/o cover, and he had a turn to get ready and close ...... only 1 officer survive ..... (i lost the boss, an ork, and an officer because they stand in noonesland after i fight) ...
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tendi



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Join date : 2010-07-11

PostSubject: Re: Orks tactics against IG, i need help...   Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:28 pm

In mid campaign it will be very hard to change the odds.

For quick solution flame and smoke grenades to create additional cover. Try to save them to stage when you end first combat. Smoke in direction of enemy gun line and use it as los blocker. In current rules whole pillar size of model base is a los blocker so it is time for our grots [i would save them in second line to not get shot by enemy for easy exp]. line the grots base to base between your combatants and enemy shooters for wall of los blocking. They will act as wall as long as they live and when your turn arrive crawl them to sides to make room for your fighters to charge/run toward enemy. Remember that stunned/knocked grot on bare floor have 4+ cover couse size is not skill or wargear so still apply and is los blocker till taken ooa.

You may try equip officers with k blastas to widen treat rage but now you are credits low. Now i would consider investing in bodies before pistols unless you go for pistols in 2-3 after game sequence


If you have dense terrain with lot of los blocking items maybe consider those damned kommandoz... add one with shoota and use it to hunt solitary enemy models, elevated snipers, hidden medic, any stand alone model. It will probably dont give you much but enemy will have less freedom in placing models on sniping position.

Try to rebalance flanks during game. If you split your forces equally for center and both flanks and place them 8-12" apart in 1-2 turns you can relocate most figters to one side. This with better chance of cover/los bloking. But dont go with all models. Leave some on other flank to still be treat or strike enemy if he try to relocate in renspons to your moves.

As for ogryn fighting. If you have no way to multichare him and take it alone in one go. Try to lure him out. Or give him turn and turn again weak targets to kill just to slow him down. Dont charge him with weaklings he will kill them in your cc phase and be free to act in his own. So just stand in his way. Be the closest target while not being seen by other enemy. Use hidden grots to intercept his charge.


hope anything will help.
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Laney



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PostSubject: Re: Orks tactics against IG, i need help...   Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:08 pm

I got a few ideas, which I'll post tomorrow if I get time. For now though...

Smoke grenades are very useful and really irritating for an opponent.
I can see the bonus of burna boyz, but I have found the kommandoz (I have 3, plus one that went LGT - so 4 + sneaky boss) a great way of causing problems while my main force advances
Scale sheer surfaces is very useful for the sneaky boss as is sprint, plus WAAAGH! means you spend less time in rapid fire range
What scenarios are you playing? If not a mix, why not play some that play to your strengths (those that don't let the IG stand and shoot at you). Several of the scenarios can force the opponent to get uncomfortably close, or maybe a Missile Silo scenario. I'd avoid skirmish at all costs with orks as they currently play.

I see what else I can think of

Laney Very Happy

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Chuchosky



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PostSubject: Re: Orks tactics against IG, i need help...   Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:15 am

Laney, we use random scenarios.

Smoke granades could be an option (im thinking on it)

I dont like komandos, as tendi said, with IG firepower can esaly kill them while your other orks are far to reach the enemy :-(

Thanks to all
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