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 In The Emperor's Name 40K Skirmish campaign game

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Oathed



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PostSubject: In The Emperor's Name 40K Skirmish campaign game   Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:50 pm

iten-game.org/

Did the DS developers know about this?

How does DS play differently?

I just found out about it a few minutes ago.
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Mordheimer



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PostSubject: Re: In The Emperor's Name 40K Skirmish campaign game   Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:54 pm

Interesting link. Thanks!

Both games play VERY differently. First, the game ITEN is played usually with 4 to 10 models per side. The game turn is still IG-UGO, but it is a roll-off based on the Leader's Speed (initiative). I theory, a bad roll can cripple the game. For example, I start and move my guys closer. Then you move and can shot some of mine. Then next Turn you start and finish me off. This is VERY possible if I have 10 models, and you have only 4. It does make for interesting Turns (in theory) but it can be a little brutal (especially on noobs that don't understand the perils that random Turn initiative could cause.)

Based on their campaign section, a game maybe 15 to 20 Turns. This is a VERY slow pace. Mostly because the movement is randomized (D6 + Speed).

The combat system is interesting. Basically, roll D6 + model attack value (either SV or FV) + weapon's combat value. If the result is equal or more than the Target Armor Value, then the victim must pass a "Grit" roll or be removed from the game. This is where (IMHO) gets mathematically weird. You see, a typical IG in ITEN has an SV of +2 and carries a Lasun which has a value of 1+. That means that the Guardsman rolls D6 +3. A typical Space Marine has an Armor of 8+. This means he has 22.2% chance of 'hitting', but the Space Marines have a Grit of 3+... this is 66.7% chance of survival. Dropping a SM is VERY hard (it should be!), but if it is done (luck), then is not hard to kill him. This brings problems of design on campaigns. Please note that an IG has a Grit of 4+... the Space Marine is barely any better. Hell, a Commissar has a Grit of 2+! In which 40k Universe a Commissar is more resilient than an Astartes?

The post game is about 'survival' of models, rather than true advancements. A model taken out in the game needs to make a new Grit roll. More than the Grit is OK. Less than the Grit, the model is dead. Exactly the Grit, model miss a game. Now, think about this... if the typical Retinue (group of Fighters) for a campaign is 200 points, and the 'typical' Space Marine group has 4 models, then you can assume that each guy costs around 50 points. You have 32% of loosing the guy completely, 16% of being forced to miss a game. Those are pretty high odds to replace someone that costs 5 times more than an IG guy.

The missions seemed like you could simply forget everything and go kill everyone. The game seems particularly vulnerable to math-hammering, as the practical scale of is too small. The game makes some assumptions of normalization, but the practical scale is very limited. There is no Post-Game advancement, and your models won;t improve. You paid for their stats, and play games. This maybe fun, but eliminates many of the random variables you see created on the post-game.

The game has merits. I liked the Campaign Generator. It seems a very nice way to create a nice campaign. I will definitely look more into it!

My first impression, after reading and skimming the rules for 15 mins is that is a GREAT game to do some simple skirmishes. If you want to send 4 or 5 guys to fight each other and you have few hours to play. I did not found evidence (I maybe wrong) on campaign growth and durability. For me, this IS critical. I like to create long stories... fall in love with the heroes and hate the villains.

Seems like a nice game for a quick fix. If that is what you want, feel free to try it! It could be a great fit. If you look for more depth (a more RPG approach to character development), the Death Squads is for you.

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Can't wait until someone invents a time machine so I can go to the specific day in the past that I volunteered for this, so I can kick my own ass.

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Since I ask "What do you think?" to all Staff, I have included it here to save time.

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Oathed



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PostSubject: Re: In The Emperor's Name 40K Skirmish campaign game   Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:46 pm

After spending some time skimming the rules there is one thing that's blatantly obvious to me:

The authors of ITEN really wanted to re-design things, and did so. It follows that the average 40K player that just wants to tool around with his plastic army dudes in a skirmish game is going to have to re-learn a bunch of terms just to get a game going - ITEN is a game built from the ground (i.e., nothing) up - whereas Deathsquads (ugh, horrible name) at least lets you keep the knowledge you learned with the basic WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv and actually put it to use.

There's no need to re-invent the wheel. Build on the things that people already are comfortable with.
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ClausLars



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PostSubject: Re: In The Emperor's Name 40K Skirmish campaign game   Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:17 am

parjlarsson wrote:
After spending some time skimming the rules there is one thing that's blatantly obvious to me:

The authors of ITEN really wanted to re-design things, and did so. It follows that the average 40K player that just wants to tool around with his plastic army dudes in a skirmish game is going to have to re-learn a bunch of terms just to get a game going - ITEN is a game built from the ground (i.e., nothing) up - whereas Deathsquads (ugh, horrible name) at least lets you keep the knowledge you learned with the basic WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv and actually put it to use.

There's no need to re-invent the wheel. Build on the things that people already are comfortable with.

Well, I can see the point of going from the ground up, but the one major change I would have made they didn't. Specifically the d6. There's a thread here somewhere about using a d10 and if you were going ground up, it's what I'd do. Space Marines are stronger than Orks, I get that, but because it's a d6 Marines are S4 while Orks are S3...the same as Joe Schmoe Guardsman. The d10 would have allowed a much higher level of detail, which is especially fitting for a skirmish game vs army game.
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Mordheimer



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PostSubject: Re: In The Emperor's Name 40K Skirmish campaign game   Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:37 am

I agree with ClausLars. As a matter of fact, we are also working on re-tooling Death Squads (LOVE THE NAME!) to accommodate D10 Scale. For example, a Gretchin may have S2, the average human S3, an IG S4, an Ork S5 and a Space Marine S6. Which such simple change, you can really see how powerful is an Ork compared to a normal human, but a Space Marine still stronger than him. Armor would have a better effect, Critical Hits (which do not exist in ITEN... Sad ) would be less 'luck' and more 'skill & gear', etc. The re-tooling takes time... because our math is deep.

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The Mordheimer - Death Squads' Chief Editor & Ninja Designer. Bursting with ARACHAS' Dev-Powah™! Puke
Can't wait until someone invents a time machine so I can go to the specific day in the past that I volunteered for this, so I can kick my own ass.

Support Bacteria; it is the ONLY culture some people have!
Since I ask "What do you think?" to all Staff, I have included it here to save time.

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Mordoten



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PostSubject: Re: In The Emperor's Name 40K Skirmish campaign game   Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:16 pm

Mordheimer wrote:
I agree with ClausLars. As a matter of fact, we are also working on re-tooling Death Squads (LOVE THE NAME!) to accommodate D10 Scale.

You are?! Really?!! Thats VERY interesting. Us Swedes left DS because of the D6 system and started to create our own D10 mod instead. Thats what we've been working on the last year. I do like DS if you disregard the D6 system, if you make it D10 i know that I fpr sure will be back trying the game again!

Hope everything goes well and it doesn't take 2 more years to get it done, i hate waiting... Smile
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Mordheimer



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PostSubject: Re: In The Emperor's Name 40K Skirmish campaign game   Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:34 pm

Hehehhe.... we already have the 'scale' concept and basic math done. We are working on Combat system... will feel 'familiar' if you come from a 40k background, but not the same. Just like Death Squads feels like Mordheim or Necromunda, depending which one you play, but it is neither.

It is a big re-write... but we are committed. Probably v0.6.5 will be the last revision with the D6 System, and v0.7.0 will be in D10 System, featuring the new Squads (at least Tau and Arbites).

_________________
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The Mordheimer - Death Squads' Chief Editor & Ninja Designer. Bursting with ARACHAS' Dev-Powah™! Puke
Can't wait until someone invents a time machine so I can go to the specific day in the past that I volunteered for this, so I can kick my own ass.

Support Bacteria; it is the ONLY culture some people have!
Since I ask "What do you think?" to all Staff, I have included it here to save time.

DoZer Flamethrower Mordheimer Justice NEEDS to be Served! Maybe 3rd Degree burns will teach you not to Tom Sawyer me to work!

.
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Oathed



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PostSubject: Re: In The Emperor's Name 40K Skirmish campaign game   Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:42 pm

Quote :
Us Swedes left DS because of the D6 system and started to create our own D10 mod instead. Thats what we've been working on the last year. I do like DS if you disregard the D6 system, if you make it D10 i know that I fpr sure will be back trying the game again!

Hope everything goes well and it doesn't take 2 more years to get it done, i hate waiting...


Tjena, tjena. Svensk i USA här. [Translation: hurdy burdy gurdy om nom nom burdy.]

Why not just post your stuff here and let's pile it all together instead of separately working on the same stuff?

Hell, get the ITEN people to work together with you all. And get the original designers of Necromunda and Kill Team and whatever involved, I'm sure they'd be flattered to be asked for input.


In other news, WTF forum software??
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Laney



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PostSubject: Re: In The Emperor's Name 40K Skirmish campaign game   Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:23 am

Could you explain WTF forum software? (Is there a problem - never found the forum to cause problems - beyond the occasional advert that needed blocking).

On the D10 mod - we have been working on that for quite some time (the D10 discussion was something that happened during our early thoughts on it). However, like all the things we try to do in our spare time, between work, lives etc it will take time to get it right.

As for bundling things together - that sounds great on the surface (lots of ideas floating around - creative bliss), but it is rarely a constructive place to start. Alternatively, gather data, constuct a way forward and then have the team criticise and aid the development of it. If people want to contribute in that way we have a route that you can go through (becoming a contributor), but that is a commitment not everyone feels they can meet.

I personally would love to draw on the expertise of other groups that are developing skirmish games, however without a clear way of working it can become a 'bun fight', which is why we can sometimes seem strict and slow on development (trust me we all want inquisitors, rogue traders, space marines etc in the game - but done right).

Cheers Laney:D

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Gatlag Stonetooth



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PostSubject: Re: In The Emperor's Name 40K Skirmish campaign game   Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:18 am

The main site of ITEN looks nice, but it also uses phpBB for it's forum so i don't see the problem.
By the way if you hate the name why don't you just download the manual and rename it to Flower Squads or whatever you like?
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Mordheimer



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PostSubject: Re: In The Emperor's Name 40K Skirmish campaign game   Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:01 am

DING, DING DING... everyone to a neutral corner! BEFORE we get into any trouble, let me clarify some points.

parjlarsson wrote:
Why not just post your stuff here and let's pile it all together instead of separately working on the same stuff?
Posting Non-Official (Personal) Material: While Death Squads is a "work by fans for fans", we do spend countless hours working on how to do things. There is a reason to the madness (mostly LOTS of proprietary math) that the average player will never get to see. Anyone who wishes to join the organized effort to work WITH the Death Squads Development Team may do so; just PM someone in the Staff and they would gladly point to the minimal requirements. Once you are part of the Staff, you would be allowed to work on the material you wish to work on. If you do NOT want to work within our organization or prefer to work alone, it is perfectly fine. But you are NOT allowed to post nor link any of non-official material related on playing the game (Squads, Units, Items, Rules, Scenarios, etc) made by you or anyone else in the Death Squads' Forum without previous authorization of two (2) Developers. Your personal ideas (Squads, House Rules, etc.) may work perfectly for you and your gaming group, but may be incompatible with what we are making. Posting that material has ALWAYS brought problems and discussions that ultimately just delay development of new material. If you have something good... JOIN the Staff! We will work whatever kinks the material may have and publish it in TLRB as an official part of the game. Make a real difference!

Death Squads is not a 'baby' project. This is not 2 or 3 guys doing something weird to abandon it when it gets hard (like most people do) because they don't get paid (because most people are not). We have worked on this project for over 3 years, and I have put over 8,000 hours on it myself. Emperor knows how much each member of the Staff (current and former) have put in. As the rule above states, when people bring their own personal material... it does not tend to end well. Most people are baffled at the realization that we are up to par with the 'big boys' in terms of math and 'under the hood' procedures. As such, they tend to resent that we completely decompile their ideas, and sometimes break them without mercy... proving with math and/or combination with other units, strategies, Scenarios, wargear, etc.

There is also an ego thing. Think of it as a corporate take-over (hostile or not). The absorbed looses its identity and the absorbing entity gains something. How would you think the creators of ITEN would feel if their project suddenly vanishes? I mean, Death Squads is much more in depth than ITEN... mechanically we have more room to do things (we aim for a skirmish, while they aim for 40k-with-fewer-models) and have more information (fluff, descriptions, etc)... but ITEN is not broken for THEM and THEIR goals. If you want to play 40k-with-fewer-models, ITEN is your game! If you want to play a Narrative Skirmishes, the Death Squads is what you want to play. Two different games, for two different goals. All perfectly fine, catering to separate crowds.

As a designer, I found holes on their system in 10 minutes. Maybe they see Death Squads and found even more holes in 5 minutes. The point is NOT which game is better, but that in the merging of ideas, some will be incompatible and thus discarded. THAT would not settle well with some of the people who liked those rules, and thus create an irreparable rift and bad blood. Instead, I prefer to let them be happy with ITEN... maybe they find Death Squads and decide to play it forever or decide not to play it (that is not their cup of tea). Whatever makes them happy, makes ME happy.

Regardless, we are here open to suggestions and criticisms... ALL IN AN ORDERLY FASHION. As Laney very wisely put it...
Laney wrote:
As for bundling things together - that sounds great on the surface (lots of ideas floating around - creative bliss), but it is rarely a constructive place to start. Alternatively, gather data, construct a way forward and then have the team criticize and aid the development of it. If people want to contribute in that way we have a route that you can go through (becoming a contributor), but that is a commitment not everyone feels they can meet.


So... we all know now about In The Emperor's Name (ITEN). Thanks for the link. Anyone curious should download the rules and try them. Do what makes YOU happy. We will be here.


BY THE POWER INVESTED IN ME, by being an eye witness to The Emperor's Bar Mitzvah...





Enjoy the awesome Death Korps of Krieg and then continue with Death Squads DEATH SQUADS Death Squads ...



_________________
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The Mordheimer - Death Squads' Chief Editor & Ninja Designer. Bursting with ARACHAS' Dev-Powah™! Puke
Can't wait until someone invents a time machine so I can go to the specific day in the past that I volunteered for this, so I can kick my own ass.

Support Bacteria; it is the ONLY culture some people have!
Since I ask "What do you think?" to all Staff, I have included it here to save time.

DoZer Flamethrower Mordheimer Justice NEEDS to be Served! Maybe 3rd Degree burns will teach you not to Tom Sawyer me to work!

.
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PostSubject: Re: In The Emperor's Name 40K Skirmish campaign game   Today at 6:38 pm

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