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mudboy



Posts : 955
Join date : 2009-07-18
Age : 32
Location : Frederiksberg, Denmark

PostSubject: Resin Casting   Fri May 04, 2012 2:36 pm

As the topic suggests I have begun playing around with silicone rubber and resin. In this thread I will post pictures and write a few words on my experiences with casting extra bits and bases. When I have learnt how to use it properly and feel confident I'll make a tutorial but for now I'll just post a few pic's.

Monday I placed an order at http://www.sylmasta.com/ and it arrived thursday. Them brits don't waste time Very Happy

Straight away I begun making the first half of a two-part test mould with a set of SM legs and some IG torso's. I also made some mould's for some random bases with varying detail.

The resin is white so it's hard to see exactly how it turned out but I'll slap some paint on them tomorow so it's easyer to see. But I can say it works okay. A few air bubbles but nothing that can't be fixed with relative ease(except for the SM legs, some small details got hit bad).

The two-part mould:


The result:


Some bases:




Cheers Very Happy
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Narcissus



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PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Fri May 04, 2012 3:24 pm

They look good so far. Once you have perfected it, I would love to see a step by step process.
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Mordheimer



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Age : 43
Location : Elizabeth City, NC (USA)

PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Fri May 04, 2012 3:50 pm

Narcissus wrote:
They look good so far. Once you have perfected it, I would love to see a step by step process.
The fans have spoken! I 2nd the request... Step by Step Tutorial!

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Komfritten



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PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Fri May 04, 2012 4:23 pm

Oh I will be following this closely! One more thing to the to-wish-list of things I want to try...
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lakedaimonioi



Posts : 66
Join date : 2009-09-03
Location : Sydney, Australia

PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Sat May 05, 2012 1:43 am

Looks like you're at about the same level as I am. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread for little hints and things you do differently from myself, and I'll jump in if I think I have anything useful to add.

It looks like you're also casting up lots of little lego studs.
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Laney



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Age : 40
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PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Sat May 05, 2012 3:11 am

Interesting thread - I've played about with some resin, but only had limited success - It's the moulds I've had trouble with.

The bases in particular look good.

Not to put a downer on this, but when I've been on Dakka Dakka, they've always been a tad funny about people showing recasting of pieces (just don't want anyone getting in trouble).

Laney:D

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Matt12z



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PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Sat May 05, 2012 4:35 am

Looks interesting! Just to repeat Laney's warning though: recasting Games Workshop pieces seem to be illegal - an infringement of Games Workshop's intellectual property. So yeah - don't want to put a downer on it either, but just to give a head's up so no one ends up in trouble.

Sparrow
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mudboy



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PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Sat May 05, 2012 7:08 am

I understand your worries regarding the legal thing but I spend a few hours looking into the laws and some discussions on the subject.

GW can't touch me. I live in Denmark under DK laws. DK laws says I can make copy's for personel use. If I start selling my copy's I could be in trouble but I would never be stupid enough to start selling things in public Wink

The lego's are great for making two-part moulds as it can make sure the two halves line up perfectly when pouring in the resin.

I'we already learned a few things about how to make the next moulds so the next one's I make should be much better.
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Da Bank



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PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Sat May 05, 2012 9:35 am

Wow! Nice work. This has possibilities.
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Mordheimer



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PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Sat May 05, 2012 10:32 am


While I don't want/need this discussion on the forum, I think I need time to address the issues. Any replies, feel free to PM me. I would LOVE to have this conversation in private with anyone. That said, any further posts on this thread that are out of topic (not referring to Resin Casting and experiences on HOW to work with resin) will be deleted without prejudice. Please understand, I'm not censoring or prohibiting the conversation... I just don't want this thread to be hijacked.


While I'm no lawyer, I have spend several hundreds hours researching the issue. You know I have OCD tendencies, so be prepared to be bored. Just Kidding

Individuals (such as mudboy and lakedaimonioi) are protected under the law to reproduce pieces for their personal use, as long as they are branded as 'reproductions' and not as 'originals'. The method of reproduction, be freehand sculpting or mold casting is irrelevant; a copy is a copy. The method of reproduction only matters hen it comes to speed up the process of creating the new parts; sculpting is slower than casting. The technique, talent and methodology of the reproduction determines the quality of the production; Narcissus sculpts would be perfect, especially if compared to mine. Just as mudboy and lakedaimonioi's amateur cheap casting operation would result in models full of bubbles and imperfections, contrary to a professional multimillion dollar operation (like... errr... FineCast!)

The problem is NOT the reproduction, but the intended use of such reproduction. In this case, our community members cast for personal use. This IS a legal term. To paraphrase the "US CODE: Title 17,107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use" from the archives of the Law School at Cornell University:

Quote :
Copyright does not prohibit all copying or replication. In the United States, the fair use doctrine, codified by the Copyright Act of 1976 as 17 U.S.C. Section 107, permits some copying and distribution without permission of the copyright holder or payment to same. The statute does not clearly define fair use, but instead gives four non-exclusive factors to consider in a fair use analysis. Those factors are:
  1. the purpose and character of your use
  2. the nature of the copyrighted work
  3. what amount and proportion of the whole work was taken, and
  4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work
So, if the Copyright Holder wished to sue, the entity would need to prove that our casters are trying to reproduce models to start an operation for financial gain. This would devalue the Intellectual Property, decreasing the Copyright Holder's earnings in a substantial manner. Basically, that the would start selling cheap models that look identical to those of the Copyright Holder, especially if they would claim they are the originals (and not reproductions).

Then... why is Dakka and other forums always concerned about people making reproductions? Because they are AFRAID of the Corporate Giants. They do not know the Law, nor the rights anyone has. Ignorance leads to fear and it is easier to 'surrender'. I read once a story about an experiment done with gorillas. They put four gorillas in a large room, with lots of boxes and hanged some bananas out of reach. After a while, a gorilla figured out that he could stack the boxes and climb up to reach the bananas. After this was accomplished, the researches waited a few days. They repeated the experiment, but when a gorilla tried to stack a box, he received an electrical shock. After few hours they stop trying to stack the boxes. This went on for few days; every time one of the gorillas tried to stack a box under the bananas, he received an electrical shock. Eventually, they all stopped trying. Then they removed one of the gorillas and brought in a new animal that had no idea of what was going on. When he tried to stack boxes, the other gorillas immediately jumped in and prevented the work trying to spare the newbie the pain of electric shock. The new gorilla was not equipped to received a shock, so kept on trying to stack boxes. The other 'experienced' gorillas resulted to violence, beating the new animal into submission. Soon he stopped trying. They substituted an experience gorilla with a newbie, and the same situation happened. Eventually, all the gorillas in the room had been substituted. Even when none of them had EVER received an electrical shock for any reason (much less for stacking boxes) they would never attempt to stack boxes. The bananas would rot in place, even if the animals were not fed. They 'blindly obeyed the rules', even if they had no idea why the rules were in place.

This is the SAME thing. At first, someone tried to copy material for commercial use and they were sued. A painful, but fair lesson. Now, the big 'commercial' entities do not copy material and won't even compete. Then the little guys that heard about the first case beat up the little guys into not doing copies for personal use, without knowing why they need to stop doing copies (a.k.a. not selling other people's models). I was REALLY angry when some Corporation sent the guy that did the Turn Signals On A Land Raider (TSOALR) web comic a notification to cease and desist, for violations to their Intellectual Property. The guy was overwhelmed and saw no point in fighting, so he quit. What was not know to him is that his web comic classifies clearly as a parody and under Copyright Law, which is classified as a Transformative Work. There has been rulings from the US's Supreme Court that would make a Pre-Law Student defeat the Corporate Behemoth in court. He could not be touched. Instead, his ignorance (damned gorillas) defeated him. He fell for those empty threats. He would win in court, but his lack of knowledge put in in a position in which he felt that he didn't had the energy, time or resources to fight. Thus, his creative work is gone and the community at large is once again resting among boxes... looking at bananas on the ceiling rot away while we are all hungry.

The same thing has happened to many websites, player groups, fan games... but non care to fight. Maybe there is a crazy son-of-a-bitch out there that, when the time is right, will fight. Then, we will all win.

To you amateur casters... cast away! Share you knowledge and have fun. Our forum... OUR FORUM... is dedicated to promote the hobby. Maybe you learn a new trade and start a new business creating ORIGINAL pieces. Maybe you just have a blast doing few models for you.

Enjoy the trip... and thanks for sharing your journey with us! Salute



PS: I'm not calling anyone a gorilla or an experiment animal... I'm just saying that before you comment, go and read the rules (the Law). Word to the Wise.... I DO KNOW THE LAW and if you even HINT you are selling any copied models, I will not only insult you in two languages in front of everyone, but kick you out of the forums and ban you for ever from stepping in our home. Then I will send a nice letter to the Copyright Holder so they sue your happy ass off to oblivion.




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The Mordheimer - Death Squads' Chief Editor & Ninja Designer. Bursting with ARACHAS' Dev-Powah™! Puke
Can't wait until someone invents a time machine so I can go to the specific day in the past that I volunteered for this, so I can kick my own ass.

Support Bacteria; it is the ONLY culture some people have!
Since I ask "What do you think?" to all Staff, I have included it here to save time.

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lakedaimonioi



Posts : 66
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Location : Sydney, Australia

PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Sat May 05, 2012 11:56 am

OFF TOPIC COMMENTS
Deleted as promised by Mordheimer.

Stay on topic. Thanks.
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Laney



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PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Sat May 05, 2012 1:12 pm

@Mudboy: cool all I needed to know (sorry for starting a potential hijack!). I look forward to seeing what you cast up next (plus I am officially demanding a tutorial - so get to it!Just Kidding ).

Laney:D

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mudboy



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PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Sat May 05, 2012 2:35 pm

It's okay. I think it's healthy for the forum to have this debate sooner than later so everyone knows how we stand on the subject.

@lakedaimonini. You're not being preachy, you're expressing you thoughts on the subject from a view most of don't have yet as not many of us have casted anything before.
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Gatlag Stonetooth



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PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Sun May 06, 2012 4:24 am

OFF TOPIC COMMENTS
Deleted as promised by Mordheimer.

Stay on topic. Thanks.
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Mordheimer



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PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Sun May 06, 2012 9:11 am

I have a question, mudboy... how do you START making molds? Where you got the basic info and materials? I'm curious.

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The Mordheimer - Death Squads' Chief Editor & Ninja Designer. Bursting with ARACHAS' Dev-Powah™! Puke
Can't wait until someone invents a time machine so I can go to the specific day in the past that I volunteered for this, so I can kick my own ass.

Support Bacteria; it is the ONLY culture some people have!
Since I ask "What do you think?" to all Staff, I have included it here to save time.

DoZer Flamethrower Mordheimer Justice NEEDS to be Served! Maybe 3rd Degree burns will teach you not to Tom Sawyer me to work!

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Da Bank



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PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Sun May 06, 2012 10:30 am

Mudboy: Please let me know your costs so far. I just found some rare models that I have never touched that are no longer made and it would be great to recast them for personal use only. Female Cadians.
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mudboy



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PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Sun May 06, 2012 3:46 pm

I got the info from a danish tabletop forum where there was talk of how to do it (LINK to danish forum)

The starting cost's aren't that bad unless you only plan to make a few copy's.
I ordered from www.sylmasta.com and here's a screenshot of what you need to get started:

They shipped it with DPD which is kinda like UPS so it didn't take long to get here.

The Mould Release agent is for two-part moulds. You paint it on to the first half of the mould when making the second. Otherwise the two halves will stick together.

The pipettes are for measuring the two resin components as they come in two large canisters. I poured some of it into some smaller pillglasses so I can pour it from them instead of the big containers.

Other than that a bunch of disposable cups is a must for mixing the rubber and resin. I use disposable 2cl shotglasses for measuring the resin and 2ml cups for mixing rubber. Remember to make a test with the resin. It generates heat when hardening. Not enough to burn you but I imagine it could melt thin plastic enough to leak through. That way you also get an idea of how fast i sets. When you mix it you only have 2-3 minutes to pour it into the mould before it starts to set and it's completely hardened after 15 minutes.

Another important thing is a scale that can weigh very small amounts. I tried to use a kitchen scale but i wasn't nearly sensitive enough. The rubber mixes 1 part catalyst to 20 parts rubber and you don't use nearly as much as you think so often you'll be needing only 2-3 grams of catalyst. To little and the rubber won't set. Too much and you end up with a lot of excess rubber that you can't use and they only sell the rubber and catalyst in sets. I made that mistake and only have half a bottle of catalyst and about 5/6th of rubber. I found one on ebay for about 12 $ and I hope it will suffice.

I'll make a tutorial as soon as i get the scale and have it all sorted out. I'm also playing around with an idea about some terrain like GW's own series but low class habblocks that you can build in different heights and shapes with a few key components. More on that later Wink


Last edited by mudboy on Mon May 07, 2012 8:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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lakedaimonioi



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PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Mon May 07, 2012 12:07 am

I make my moulds from a silicone called Pinkysil. Again, due to the vagaries of currency conversion etc I don't know how the price compares (plus I buy mine from a brick and mortar retailer, so I probably pay a lot more than I would if I ordereed it online) but I imagine it would probably cost a bit more than the rubber mudboy is using. It mixes 1 part to 1 part though, so does away with the need for delicate measurig (just fill 2 identical disposable plastic cups to about the same point, then pour both into a third disposable plastic cup and stir.

I also don't use mould release (but I probably should) I just use regular household cooking oil (I'm using canola oil at the moment because that's what's in the kitchen). The kind that comes in a spray can is the easiest to use. Just be careful not to use too much - if the oil (and I imagine the same would apply to mould release) gets on the miniature you're casting you will lose detail, and if it pools to thickly elsewhere on your mould you'll get excessive flash (basically anywhere you have oil/release-agent will fill with resin when you cast the mould so don't go overboard).
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mudboy



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PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Mon May 07, 2012 8:04 am

Hmm, I might try that cooking oil one day.

Yeah I think it's a bit cheaper buying it from the manufacterer than a real store. Cut out the middleman.

Edit; slight mistake in my previous post:
mudboy wrote:

The rubber mixes 1 part catalyst to 10 20 parts rubber...
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Da Bank



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PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Mon May 07, 2012 10:13 am

@Mudboy. thanks for the details. Next question, how many models do you think you can make for the 116 Euro?
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mudboy



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PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Mon May 07, 2012 10:44 am

A shitload!

Considering the fact that a human sized model does not have a lot of bulk and the set gives you 2 litres of resin I'd say about 200. And after that you only need to buy more resin as you already have the mould.
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Da Bank



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PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Mon May 07, 2012 12:11 pm

Awesome! I will follow what you are doing before I try it. As you can always use more female cadians in your squad or turn them into a Renegade squad.
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Mordheimer



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PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Mon May 07, 2012 9:48 pm

mudboy wrote:
A shitload!
I'm sorry... I only know English and Metric measuring systems. How much is that? Just Kidding

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The Mordheimer - Death Squads' Chief Editor & Ninja Designer. Bursting with ARACHAS' Dev-Powah™! Puke
Can't wait until someone invents a time machine so I can go to the specific day in the past that I volunteered for this, so I can kick my own ass.

Support Bacteria; it is the ONLY culture some people have!
Since I ask "What do you think?" to all Staff, I have included it here to save time.

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lakedaimonioi



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PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Mon May 07, 2012 11:02 pm

An imperial shitload is 0.621371 of a metric shitload.

Mudboy, I'd be interested to hear if you do give the cooking oil a try. Your observations would help inform my decision as to whether I should invest in proper mould release or not.

The other thing that works well as an alternative to mould release is lube. Personally, I prefer the cooking oil as (rightly or wrongly) using a spray can _feels_ like I'm getting a more even coverage than I would with a brush.
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mudboy



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PostSubject: Re: Resin Casting   Fri May 18, 2012 7:30 am

lakedaimonioi wrote:
An imperial shitload is 0.621371 of a metric shitload.

LOL

I just got my ultra sensitive scale in the mail so hopefully I'll have a tutorial up in the start of next week.

I'll also try out the cooking oil and post my thoughts.

Edit; I tried the cooking oil and it didn't work. The two halfs stuck together like it was one piece. All the oil did was grease everything up so I think I'll stick with the release agent. But I got the mould cut up nicely so it can still be used Smile
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