Finaly, Im officaly a DS player

So last week I played my first games (2 of them) and played a 3rd yesterday...

I was great fun, played with a mate of mine, same player in all 3 games and he enjoyed it very much as well.

It was my Cultist vs his Orks (all my models). I lost the first game, lost BIG, mostly becourse I made som tactical blunders, but won the last 2 games. (the one yesterday i won BIG).

One thing I really learned was how dangerus shooting is, especially shooting within 12", really killed alot of my models the first game. Mentel note, use "laying low" more.

Overall it left me with a lot of questions (will come later) and at lot of comments on "older" posts, im might gonna resurrect at some point.

i now got 3 complete squads, Cultists, Orks and Imperial Guard, pictures will follow in the near future.

-Skavenslayer

Skavenslayer

Congrats! It took you a while to play but that is great. Better late than never.

Can't wait to see the pics of your squads.

Thanks.

Yes, i was very excited to finaly play, but was surpriced how much my friend likede it, but that is just good

-Skavenslayer

All this talk of games and models and full squads...


WHERE ARE THE PICS!?!?!?!

Im trying to get some time this weekend to take some pictures of my squads, will post them starting of next week I hope.

I diddent take pictures of the games, here at first we are going to be concentrate on the rules. plus, we play on a wooden board with brown cardboard bildings and grey plastic models. Nothing worth showing.

Btw, Happy Birthday Arachas

-Skavenslayer

Great to hear that you've been playing - I'm hoping to get a couple of games in, within the next few days (my nephew and brother are in the area and won't escape!).

It would be cool to see your starting squad lists.

Laney:D

skavenslayer wrote:

Im trying to get some time this weekend to take some pictures of my squads, will post them starting of next week I hope.

I diddent take pictures of the games, here at first we are going to be concentrate on the rules. plus, we play on a wooden board with brown cardboard bildings and grey plastic models. Nothing worth showing.

Btw, Happy Birthday Arachas

-Skavenslayer

Thanks! Yeah, two devs having a birthday on the same date... what are the odds?

So this just hit me: you've been giving me advice on how to use my Imperial Guard... but you'd never played a game at the time!

Not to derail the thread but...

Happy Birthday Arachas!

Cheers Laney:D

What happened to Mord making big birthday posts anyway?

Thanks man!

Arachas wrote:

So this just hit me: you've been giving me advice on how to use my Imperial Guard... but you'd never played a game at the time!

Well, yes... but, in several of the tactics threads I postet, I did mention that, I had not played a game yet.
I played a lot of Mordheim games, and read the rules several times. That is enought for me to start working on tactics.

Now you can think: "If the tactics work when he diddent know the rules, how are they gonna get now??"

Laney wrote:

It would be cool to see your starting squad lists.

Orks: (house ruled: All Orks starts with a Combat Knife)
Nob: Blasta, club
Ard Boy: Blasta, club
Ard Boy: Twohander club
Flash Git: Shoota
Sneaky Boss: Shoota, club

Ork Boys x 3: Club
Painboy:
loota: Shoota
Kommando: Shoota, club
Grot x 2: Pea-shootas
Grot:

Cultists:
CSM: Sword, Bolt pistol
As. Champ: Autogus
As. Champ: Autogus
Chosen: MoK, Head guard, Flak armor, Slugger, Axe
Chosen: MoS, Head guard, Flak armor, Slugger, Sword

Annihilator: Flamer
Annihilator: Grenade Launcher, 2 extra frag nades,
Cultist: Vox-caster
Cultist x 4: club (might only have been 3 models)

-Skavenslayer

By The Warp... no pics?!?! You DO want me to go to Denmark and extract proof out of you? Grrrrr... I don't like you anymore. Not for the lack of pics, but because you FORCED me to agree with Corintus.

Congratz! It was about time. Hehehehe... not only you have been giving advice on a game you had not played, but you have ALWAYS been right. To top that, you have been correcting me 99% of the time. Not that such a feat is hard to do (I tend to be wrong most of the time)... but still is funny!

Why you housed ruled that all Orks start with a Combat Knife? Just for you to know, the reason is to promote ( ) a smaller initial Squad. Instead of an Ork Boy, you get clubs and other weapons. The Ork resilience is a brutal initial advantage.

Corintus wrote:

What happened to Mord making big birthday posts anyway?

Ohhh! You people are only good for sculpting, modeling, painting, building terrain, playing, making rules, clarifying rules and bitchin... check the threads. LINK

Mordheimer wrote:

Why you housed ruled that all Orks start with a Combat Knife? Just for you to know, the reason is to promote ( ) a smaller initial Squad. Instead of an Ork Boy, you get clubs and other weapons. The Ork resilience is a brutal initial advantage.

I housed ruled the Orks mostly becourse it just gave me a wrong fealing not starting with blades...
Then the price of a Ork boy compared to a IG militiaman. Counting the Combat blade with, the Ork cost 12 credit more then a human. It just feels to much.

-Skavenslayer

An Ork Boy costs 32 credits, while an Infantryman 25. For 7 credits, you get an Infantryman with BS 2 (crappy shooting) and I 2 (slower)... but WS 4 (better Close Combat) and T4 (better overall resistance to damage). Not only that, but the Ork Ld (same as Infantryman) could start very high (depending on how many Orks are on the table).

In the name of disclosure, the indicates that Orks Boyz should cost 32.5 credits. Knowing the facts below, it seems a little low. But we can leave with that... pricing is about playability too.

You are giving a Close Combat Specialist (higher WS) who is designed to resist Wounds (higher T) a FREE Close Combat weapon. The "path" is to have players arming Orks for Close Combat with Choppas, not the cheap Club & Free Combat Knife combo like you could the IG (or anyone else).

Making the Knife free adds up. You start with 5 Officers and 3 Ork Boys, that is 40 credits you are giving away. That extra Ork is the difference between "fair fight" and for your opponent. Right now you are not "depending" on the Knives for a fight... so why add them? Flavor and fluff? Fine... but don't count your fluffy knives as Combat Knives. If one of your Boyz get into a Close Combat Fight, then have him fight Club and Fist. Later in the campaign, upgrade to Choppa and Club.

A Combat Knife is not worth a debate or fight between you and your opponents... until something happens and his Leader gets killed by a Combat Knife. Then the argument will be "You have been cheating since day one... you started with 40 extra credits that you used to buy another Ork Boy, which had kept me back."

I arm my Boyz with Clubs... but the models have Blastas. So I argue that my guns have no ammo. Later I buy the guns and things make more sense... but at no point I'm 'borrowing" credits. You "feel" like your Orks should carry puny Combat Knives (yes, they are substandard sharp things for Orks) then pay for them. Once you add the tiny amounts and you see that having an extra Ork is better, you see.

This is one of those issues that affect the campaign in the long run. I have seen it happen.

I just want to see the world burn

Mostly I agree with you, just feels like it will hurt the Orks in the long run and not the opponent... maby time will tell if im wrong... Honestly, I make (house)rules by heart and experiece and not , this is just one of the things you all gotta live with, when it comes to me, I sometines make house rules without data back-up and go by heart.

One thing that really surpriced me, is how the grenades (+launcher) work, was a little dissaponited... After the last game i realised that, the printouts of the templates I printed, is to small. The blast templetes is about 2,5" and not 3".. gotta get me some real ones, with correct sizes.

The Big Shoota also seems underpowered compared to the other Heavy weapons... in the last game we tryed giving it: D2+2 strength and D2+2 shots, seems to make it about the same powerlevel as the rest, but its hard to tell at the moment. Also makes it a little random, fells like a Ork weapon

Dont take my houserules personaly, you are all doing a great job here

-Skavenslayer

I'm pretty sure personal have nothing to do with it. Mord just have an overwhelming compelling (disorder?) to explain the balancing of the rules, so we all can take educated decisions.

Furthermore WHEN (!) you add pics and a battle report, it's quite important to explain any alterations - just so everything adds up in the end =)

I'm really happy for you, that you (finally) made it to your first game - it's just great, and I hope to get some more myself soon!.

Well... is YOUR game. You play any way you want. Our rules are based on fair game mechanics, but we also understand that there is a fun vs mechanics balancing. My comments are solid... but your entertainment is what really matters (even to me).

Big Shoota... the power of the weapon is not the weapon itself, but the UPGRADES. Those guns have 3 factors; range, power and armor penetration. The Heavy Bolter has a different advantage than the Stubber. You can customize your Big Shoota to fit your style with the upgrades. Tell you... those Gretchins are DA BOMB!!!

Do as you see fit. I don't take your customization of our game personally. We both agree that there could be something about the rules as written or your modifications, and we both agree that this is about FUN. When you modify the rules and you are happy with the results... so are we! We have made many changes to the rules based on open discussions.

At the end it may come down to "I'm happier with Orks carrying knives, even if there could be some unbalancing." That is a GREAT reason too! If you were trying to shove down everyone's throat that your way is better while having no data to backup such claim, then we just roll our collective eyes and let you be happy in your insanity. Ohhh... wait.... we already do that!

I promise you, when I go to Denmark (to force you post the damned pics!) we will play... and ALL of our Orks will carry as many Combat Knives as you want. And I will like it!

When (!) you come to Denmark, I promise I'll have Novac done, so we can play an unfriendly game of DS. And that You can have a favourite piece with you home

Glad you wont hang yourself becourse of my houserules

About the Big Shoota, I might have missed (or forgot) the grot helper rules, but I still find the Big Shoota a little bit underpowered.
I would compare it to the other Heavy weapons (Stubber and heavy bolter) of the 3 the Big Shoota got the worst, AP, range and Strenght and 2ed worst AP. I would make it a little more close to the others and then make the ekstra rules like helpers ect...

-Skavenslayer

The comparison of weapons isn't a valid one though. For example, an autogun isn't as good as a bolter (or a lasgun or hellgun for that matter). They are all rapid fire, but they fulfil different roles and have different levels of accessibility (and cost).

The Big Shoota was always designed to be the 'poor man's heavy stubber'. It encourages Orks to play like orks, rather than IG in green Hulk suits. The grot aids allow for customisation that the heavy stubber can't have and it is 8 credits cheaper and is a highly versatile weapon for Orks to keep the Umie's heads down, while the boys charge.

The Heavy Bolter is a nasty weapon, but only accessible (currently) to Chaos Cultists, who must be chaos undivided (limiting them to officers - so not available to annhilators and limiting some of the cool options of the squad - no fancy chaos marks) and they must be strength 4 to even pick the thing up and have a heavy weapon skill to use it.

Compare that to the cheap as chips Big Shoota, which can be picked up by the Flash Git and up to 3 Lootas in a few games time (Rarity 6 and no limitations beyond the heavy weapons skill). Yes, it is weaker and has lower range and shots, but it is a very useful weapon to the Orks.

The Heavy Stubber is Rarity 7 and more expensive and has slightly less early availability for a squad (plus it can't be used by four fighters, just two until an officer gains a skill or TLGT gets rolled) that is geared to be 'shooty'.

Essentially, you get what you pay for.

Cheers Laney

Laney wrote:

The comparison of weapons isn't a valid one though. For example, an autogun isn't as good as a bolter (or a lasgun or hellgun for that matter). They are all rapid fire, but they fulfil different roles and have different levels of accessibility (and cost).

This is not a fair comparison either, the Bolter and Hellgun is Officers only and the Lasgun is almost the same for a small cost. (Personlay I think the Autogun wins over the Lasgun becourse of cost) Most improtant when comparing the Autogun and Lasgun, they got the same strenght.

Laney wrote:

The Big Shoota was always designed to be the 'poor man's heavy stubber'. It encourages Orks to play like orks, rather than IG in green Hulk suits. The grot aids allow for customisation that the heavy stubber can't have and it is 8 credits cheaper and is a highly versatile weapon for Orks to keep the Umie's heads down, while the boys charge.

I understand the Big Shoota is a ´poor mans stubber´and you want to encourages, but with to many limits it is only forcing people the play Orks ´melee only´.
8 credit is (to me) not = -1S.

Laney wrote:

Compare that to the cheap as chips Big Shoota, which can be picked up by the Flash Git and up to 3 Lootas in a few games time (Rarity 6 and no limitations beyond the heavy weapons skill). Yes, it is weaker and has lower range and shots, but it is a very useful weapon to the Orks.

There is a limit for only 3 Heavy Weapons, but the point still work, the Flash Git can get the more powerfull Snazzgun. 3 Lottas means, no other Specialists (I know, part of the game), But a Kommando with Shoota is (again to me) a better shoota, when comparing cost and rarity.
Loota 43 + Big shoota 32 + Grot 15 Helper skill 15 = 105 credit. Still only S3
Comparing to the IG. HWS 36 + Heavy Stubber 40 = 76 credit.

skavenslayer wrote:

There is a limit for only 3 Heavy Weapons, but the point still work, the Flash Git can get the more powerfull Snazzgun. 3 Lottas means, no other Specialists (I know, part of the game), But a Kommando with Shoota is (again to me) a better shoota, when comparing cost and rarity.
Loota 43 + Big shoota 32 + Grot 15 Helper skill 15 = 105 credit. Still only S3
Comparing to the IG. HWS 36 + Heavy Stubber 40 = 76 credit.

And for those 30 credits you get T4. I would happily pay 30 extra for T4.

Arachas wrote:

And for those 30 credits you get T4. I would happily pay 30 extra for T4.

Or seen from the other side, 30 credit for -1S.
Yes, T4 vs. T3 shooters is great, but S4 vs. S3 is better still. My biggest problem with the Big Shooter IS the low Strenght.
This and a few more things makes the Orks worse shooters then they should be. (again personal opinion)

BTW... Stop changing names all the time. Its confussing

-Skavenslayer

Orks rule. Deal with it.

skavenslayer wrote:

BTW... Stop changing names all the time. Its confussing -Skavenslayer

I know! I thought a new name would be cool, but I had 5-6 people tell me to change back. Who am I to defy the will of the people?

Arachas wrote:

Orks rule. Deal with it.

I am dealing with it, im making houserules to make the game more balanced in my gaminggroup

-Skavenslayer

The comparison with the autogun vs bolter etc was to show that the comparison was not fair a straight lasgun vs autogun is the same point. Lasgun has the ability to grow compared to the autogun and the autogun is cheaper. My point being like for like comparisons are not fair, they need to be considered in the context of the squad.

The game causes you to make choices - if you want to play heavy weapons and shooting then Orks is probably not the ultimate choice - it wouldn't be fluffy and they don't play like orks. The extreme alternative is we have one squad will all options and just give it different names if we are playing orks, IG etc. The Flash Git can pick up a heavy stubber and leave a slot open for another speshulist.

Arachas - you also forgot the higher rate of fire with the grot helper (or better targeting) and an extra BS3 shooter if you choose to equip them.

I appreciate we disagree on this, but there are enough shooting options for the orks to be effective in their own way (imo).

Cheers Laney:D