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moefaux



Posts : 16
Join date : 2013-01-14
Age : 34
Location : kansas

PostSubject: MoT questions   Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:04 am

So I'm going to be playing a campaign in a month or 2 with friends (gives everyone time for some sweet modeling). Looking all the squads over I've decided on a Tzeentch themed Cultist squad

Psykers? Who can fly? And they can learn a skill that can scatter troops before the game starts?

Yes Please!

The problem I see is that its a not easy on the old 750 credit pool. I'm new to the warhammer rules set so I'm fuzzy on the 5+ invunerable save.

How squishy will my officers be?

Should I kit them out for melee in the beginning?

Can I save creds by skimping on armor in early matches?

Thanks ahead for your time!
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moefaux



Posts : 16
Join date : 2013-01-14
Age : 34
Location : kansas

PostSubject: Re: MoT questions   Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:34 am

To elaborate here is my squad list:

CSM
Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Sword, Combat Knife
MoT, Sorcerer, S.Icon:Tzeentch
total= 243 creds
-psyker powers and the chance to summon a daemon, i like how he's set up

A.Champions x2
MoCU
Autogun x1
Sword x2
total= 134 creds
-one gets CSM's bolter, I heard you can do that

Cultist x5
Autogun x5
total= 215 creds
-bodies w/ cheap long range guns I need these

Chosen x2
MoT x2
total= 118
-this is where I'm stick

I have 40 creds left at this point. What I'm thinking is is getting 2 autopistols for the chosen, giving them the swords, and giving the A.Champs bludgeons. The idea being the chosen are back up for my CSM and Warp Entity (if he shows up) as they tear up CC, but I don't know how well they would survive in CC/in the open with no armor and just the 5+ invunerable.

Thoughts? Experiences? Critiques? Merciless Insults?




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rhuntar



Posts : 201
Join date : 2010-05-01
Age : 32
Location : Portland OR

PostSubject: Re: MoT questions   Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:05 am

moefaux wrote:

The problem I see is that its a not easy on the old 750 credit pool.

This is part of the feeling our rule designers want you to have! You shouldn't be able to get everything you want right of the bat.

As far as how squishy he will be: Your CSM should be able to stand up to a lot of punishment. 2 W and T 4 mean quite a bit in this game.

Part of the reason for that is the Injury Roll after you your last unsaved wound. Due to his Damnation Over Eternal Death rule, your opponent needs to roll a 6 on his injury roll to take the CSM OOA (out of action). On a 1-3, he's knocked down and getting right back up next round. (with a couple penalties.... I 0, etc.)


He starts with power armor, so you'll be getting a 4+ save, if you don't have a better save. The only time that invunerable 5+ will be coming into play is if your opponent is using a weapon that negates your armor (AP 4 or lower)

It probably comes in handy for your chosen early in the campaign, as you can skip other armour upgrades for a pretty long while.

Does that help?


One thing with your list is the CSM gets either the boltgun or a sword and bolt pistol combo, not both. - Vol 3 Squads on pg 14, under starting dq. Good news is you can also add Space Marine Power Armor onto your list of his eq. (maybe you though of this as obvious and didn't list it.)

You can swap the boltgun (if thats the loadout you choose) to another squad member, but not until after the first game. With the CSM's sorcerous powers you might not need a ranged weapon, but you also might prefer the sword and bolt pistol loadout, in case he's getting into combat.


I had to double check your math, because I thought you were paying way to much for the CSM, but you've got it correct. I think that's part of the character of the CC squads however. The CSM is the star of the show. Nobody else will measure up. He should be able to carry everyone else along with him, down their dark path.

Tactics wise, however, it is a gamble. Know that if the CSM goes down to that luck shot, and then gets an unlucky serious injury roll in the post battle sequence, you'll either be starting over, leaving your opponents ahead of you experience wise, or you're squad with be handicapped, trying to blunder their way into damnation without a focal point. Both make great stories! but can be a bummer....


Starting with a Warp Entity is also a high risk choice. You're paying 84 creds for a somewhat unreliable model, but like you say, If it shows up, no one will want to stand up to the fury of a CSM and Warp Entity.

Depending on what your opponents start with, you may start out outgunned and/or outnumbered. The trick will be to put your combat core into the right spot at the right time, while attempting to keep the other part of the opponents squad out of the way, or otherwise occupied.

Some smoke grenades for one or two of your officers might be a good choice, especially if that 5 man cultist fire team doesn't seem able to pack enough punch.

That's a couple of my thoughts, as someone who's technically never played a game of DS.
-rhuntar
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moefaux



Posts : 16
Join date : 2013-01-14
Age : 34
Location : kansas

PostSubject: Re: MoT questions   Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:30 pm

Thanks rhuntar, your post was exactly what I was looking for.

I've updated my squad to be less guano-crazy.

Chaos SM (109)
-power armor
-bolter
-club
-combat knife
-MoT (25)
-Sorcerer (25) = 164

A.Champion x2 (76)
-combat knife x2
-MoCU x2
-lasgun x2 (58)
-smoke grenade x2 (16) = 152

Chosen x2 (68)
-combat knife x2
-MoT x 2 (50)
-autopistol x2 (30)
-sword x2 (36) = 184

Annihilator (34)
-combat knife
-flamer (27)
-headguard (9) =70

Cultist x4 (84)
-C.knife x4
-autogun x4 (88) = 172

All that leaves me with a whopping 8 creds left over which I will probably spend on another Smoke Grenade for one of my Chosen so he can play guard the flamer better. I didn't catch that I missed power armor and left the bolt pistol on my CSM, hes taking the bolter. After the first match he'll trade the bolter to an A.Champ because the consensus seems to be CSM should be front line, and mine can always hurl a doombolt if he needs to hit something at range (at least until i can roll for that possessed bolt pistol).

Thanks Again! Any other advice/critiques/suggestions are welcome.



Last edited by moefaux on Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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rhuntar



Posts : 201
Join date : 2010-05-01
Age : 32
Location : Portland OR

PostSubject: Re: MoT questions   Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:22 pm

Sounds good. Bear in mind, it might be worth keeping a few creds in reserve for that 15 upkeep on the CSM. You'll probably get more than that in income, but if you had lousy rolls, or all your officers went OOA on a fluke you'd be stuck selling off equipment.


I think (not looking at the rulebook right now) that the CSM starts with either just a bolter, or the sword and bolt pistol combo. You could certainly buy a sword if he's taking the bolter loadout. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Its also worth noting that you'll have an extra lasgun after you trade the bolter down. Maybe you'd want a close combat cultist as cannon fodder, and give him the lasgun later. You can always bank it instead too....

Good luck!
-rhuntar
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moefaux



Posts : 16
Join date : 2013-01-14
Age : 34
Location : kansas

PostSubject: Re: MoT questions   Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:37 pm

Yeah I know I was copy and pasting the list from a note pad doc and pasted the 1st draft (I save 1st drafts cause I'm an English major w/ OC).
Then i based the rest off the wrong list (cause despite my English OC I suck at proofreading). Thanks for the catching that.

Post Edited!

***smoke pellet***
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Laney



Posts : 3352
Join date : 2010-02-13
Age : 40
Location : Colchester, Essex, England

PostSubject: Re: MoT questions   Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:49 pm

Here's some tweaks you might want to go with for the squad...

Chaos SM (109) Make this guy close combat or a ranged killer, either way he will be incredibly dangerous and needs to be at the forefront.
-power armor
-bolter
-club (I'd drop this for 5 credits spare - I'd personally swap the bolter for bolt pistol and sword to make him more flexible)
-combat knife
-MoT (25)
-Sorcerer (25) = 164

A.Champion x2 (76)
-combat knife x2
-MoCU x2
-lasgun x2 (58) Swap for autoguns (save 14 credits) - pretty much the same at this stage and can be passed to cultists for more cheap recruits as you upgrade their weapons
-smoke grenade x2 (16) = 152 lose one grenade (save 8 credits)

Chosen x2 (68)
-combat knife x2
-MoT x 2 (50)
-autopistol x2 (30)
-sword x2 (36) = 184

Annihilator (34)
-combat knife
-flamer (27)
-headguard (9) =70 (lose the headguard - armour saves become useful later on, but a 6+ cover save at this point isn't needed - save 9 credits)

Cultist x4 (84)
-C.knife x4
-autogun x4 (88) = 172
Add one extra cultist with autogun 43 credits
Credits left over - 1 credit

One extra body and increased firepower, with little lost across the squad.

Hope this helps

Laney Very Happy

_________________
I thought the acolytes of Khorne were supposed to be warriors, not a bunch of pansies.
— Commissar Ciaphas Cain, to a Khorne Berserker, during the Chaos attack on Adumbria
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moefaux



Posts : 16
Join date : 2013-01-14
Age : 34
Location : kansas

PostSubject: Re: MoT questions   Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:17 pm

Thanks for the input Laney!

That was similar to my original idea except I had the icon instead of annihilator. After thinking it over a bit I'm going with my gut.

CSM
Bolt Pistol/Sword
MoT, Sorcerer, S.Icon:Tzeentch
total= 243 creds

A.Champions x2
MoCU x2
C.Knife x2
Autogun x2
total= 120 creds

Cultist x5
Autogun x5
C.Knife x5
total= 215 creds

Chosen x2
MoT x2
Autopistol x2
Sword
Club
total= 171 creds
749 credits

I know its a gamble relying on the Entity and Psyker powers but I chose CHAOS not reliable Just Kidding I'll report how it all turns out after a few games.

Still open to Tzeentch squad suggestions, comments, experiences, etc...
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Laney



Posts : 3352
Join date : 2010-02-13
Age : 40
Location : Colchester, Essex, England

PostSubject: Re: MoT questions   Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:45 am

That looks like a solid squad to me. As you want a Tzeentch squad I can understand the choice of two MoT chosen, but it might be more useful (in playing terms) to look at other Marks. Or, even drop the two marks off the chosen and add another body with autogun to the squad.

I like the fact you've gone for the summoning icon - it will make life very difficult for your opponents at times!

Good Luck with the squad

(What squads are other people in your campaign intending to play?)

Laney Very Happy

_________________
I thought the acolytes of Khorne were supposed to be warriors, not a bunch of pansies.
— Commissar Ciaphas Cain, to a Khorne Berserker, during the Chaos attack on Adumbria
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skavenslayer



Posts : 224
Join date : 2009-08-18
Age : 34
Location : Kokkedal, Denmark

PostSubject: Re: MoT questions   Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:47 am

Your squad is looking better and better, so far I have only played the Cultist squad and love them so far. Unfortunately is hard for me to give advice on a Tzeentch squad.
Im a Nurgle man myself, dislike tzeentch and wizards / psykers fluffwise and think Tzeentch is the weakest squad of them all, but I will ofc give advice as best as i can.

My comments in red

CSM
Bolt Pistol/Sword
MoT, Sorcerer, S.Icon:Tzeentch
total= 243 creds
-The Icon seems expensive and risky at start up, but if you really want deamons, it best to start with it.
Personaly I dont like deamons, so might never get a Icon, but Im weird Very Happy
I have to dissagree with Laney on the Bolter vs Bolt Pistol, I find the Bolt Pistol more or less useless, in combat you already got S4 and when shooting: Pistol shoot once, with penality, when moving. Bolter shoot twice, no penalty. Standing still both shoot twich within 12", bolter can shoot once 18"


A.Champions x2
MoCU x2
C.Knife x2
Autogun x2
total= 120 creds
-Love it, if you want them as shooters, this is the way to go. Now just hope for +S and a skill Very Happy

Cultist x5
Autogun x5
C.Knife x5
total= 215 creds
-I played them with only clubs and used them as meatshield, but want to try them as shooters. Only concern is the low BS


Chosen x2
MoT x2
Autopistol x2
Sword
Club
total= 171 creds
-These I would change a lot. MoT might not be that good for Chosen, I think MoK is the best option for Chosen, so if your fluff allows it, maby change it. I would also drop the Autopistols and Swords, and buy Flak Jacket and Head Guards. I tried Pistols on my Chosen and did not use them a lot, the Swords are, to me a little overpriced to start with. I know starting with only Clubs and Knifes, sounds bad, but I want better weapons fast with these guys. Chainswords, Chainaxes (MoK) and Bolt Pistols.
749 credits I dont know how my change affect the total cost, but that is your problem Very Happy

Hope this helps Very Happy

-Skavenslayer
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Laney



Posts : 3352
Join date : 2010-02-13
Age : 40
Location : Colchester, Essex, England

PostSubject: Re: MoT questions   Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:42 pm

Ace advice as usual from Skavenslayer - however where the bolter vs bolt pistol may be correct as a direct comparison, he's forgetting the sword and the boost to the attack from using two close combat weapons (which means he is much more effective in close combat with this loadout). With the marines sorcerous powers adding some ranged attacks (Doombolt, Bolt of Change) and ability to close with the enemy (Siren).

On the other hand, the bolter would be my personal choice with Mark of Nurgle.

Cheers Laney:D

_________________
I thought the acolytes of Khorne were supposed to be warriors, not a bunch of pansies.
— Commissar Ciaphas Cain, to a Khorne Berserker, during the Chaos attack on Adumbria
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moefaux



Posts : 16
Join date : 2013-01-14
Age : 34
Location : kansas

PostSubject: Re: MoT questions   Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:22 pm

I have thought about dropping the MoT on the Chosen to add another body, but you have to buy them at recruitment if I understand the rules correctly. I should probably mention that a house rule we're using allows officers to pick their advancements instead of rolling. With that in mind one idea I wanted to try out skimming the options was:

Chosen w/ infiltrate, steady shot, Siren, Flight, and max BS (7 advancements total for Chosen I think)
-bolter w/ telescopic sight
-can try for the Tzeentch ammo or the multishot clips depending on who I'm up against
-sniper that starts in enemy territory, can fly into a sweet position, 30" reach, can pick his targets, and has a panic button w/ the siren power.

I don't know how it will all work but when that popped in my brain I knew try it out. And I'm brewing up something nasty with the other Chosen that should synergize w/ the above guy quite nicely I just need to double check some rules first. I'm thinking of naming them Gloom & Doom Laughing

Opponents= Orks/Renegades/???/??? but probably another Cult
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moefaux



Posts : 16
Join date : 2013-01-14
Age : 34
Location : kansas

PostSubject: Re: MoT questions   Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:35 pm

Thanks for the advice guys! I think I'm gonna switch the swords for clubs per your suggestion. Laney nailed it with the sword/pistol combo its for better CC options because my CSM has psyker powers for decent ranged attacks.

I really like Tzeentch fluff and crunch wise but that's just me. Its not direct and reliable its tricksy and chaotic. Which I dig high risk with a chance of opponents yelling WT#.
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Laney



Posts : 3352
Join date : 2010-02-13
Age : 40
Location : Colchester, Essex, England

PostSubject: Re: MoT questions   Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:45 pm

Good luck with it! Make sure to post some pics of the new squad!

Laney:D

_________________
I thought the acolytes of Khorne were supposed to be warriors, not a bunch of pansies.
— Commissar Ciaphas Cain, to a Khorne Berserker, during the Chaos attack on Adumbria
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skavenslayer



Posts : 224
Join date : 2009-08-18
Age : 34
Location : Kokkedal, Denmark

PostSubject: Re: MoT questions   Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:40 am

To say I "forgot" might be a little harsh... but I get your point Very Happy

I agree that the Sword/Pistol is worth more credit then the Bolter alone, so a + there, I also agree the for the MoT its better then for, lets say for a MoN.
Im not suggesting that he should not get another weapon, I would get him a Club a start up and he should be fine, that way he still gets a +A for second hand weapon. This lets you pass the Bolter to a Champion after first game, giving you a BS4, S4 guy earlier.

Still if your fluff allows it, consider MoK for the Chosen, other wise go with MoCU, that way you can get the +1 armor save skill, combine it with Carapaca Armor and Helmet, getting a "2+" armor save Twisted Evil

Im very interested in knowing how a MoT / psyker plays. I know how a MoN is (played that) and can imagin how MoS and MoK would play, but got no idea how good Tzeentch is.

Ofc there are 2 important point here.
1: Play the way YOU want.

2: (and more important) POST pictures Pics, or didn\'t hap

-Skavenslayer
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moefaux



Posts : 16
Join date : 2013-01-14
Age : 34
Location : kansas

PostSubject: Re: MoT questions   Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:18 pm

No worries! Smile

I have switched my squad up a bit since I started looking at the future. I dropped the chosen from the starting line up because I'm still not sure what I want to do with them. I gave the A.Champs the MoT because one of my initial plans was trick out a MoT officer into a flying sniper and the champs seem more shooty + i can still use the Icon if one happens to seize leadership of the squad. I turned my cultists into a CC suicide squad so having some chosen kitted out for assault/CC with the MoK sounds like great leadership for them. Fluff wise it is a bit of a gray/grey area, Special K hates psykers but he hates (everything) a lack skulls and blood the most of all. Tzeentch seems like a very ends justify the means/ just as planned type of god.

K & T aren't directly opposed so they must grudgingly see the benefit of working together. So I think I can swing it in the fluff especially if the chosen have been black listed from the local Khorne cult for a failed mutiny attempt. Make them disgraced A.Champs being punished by having to work for a filthy psyker.
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