IG and ImpRens

You can NOT keep the credits! Those 50 credits are USE THEM OR LOOSE THEM! That means, whatever is left, is GONE. Its a game balancing issue... if it is not respected, it will throw the campaign on the IR favor's. I warned ya'...

OH! I did not know what you meant . Do you have any ideas on what to get next?
I mean what would be best for this grupe? Another milltaman or a few more Frags?
What? Any thoughts?

dwi

OK... I saw your Squad again. You can NOT start with a Buzzsaw... it has a rarity. You need to learn how to 'live' with the design. You can get those weapons on game two. If you allow that weapon, then other players in your group could 'demand' other rare weapons, to be fair. Then the campaign will be out-of -whack.

Trust me on this dwi... I mean, I'm not just a freak who plays the game... I'm writing the book! Hell, don't trust me. Ask Dozer. He is a genius when it comes to micro-balance things and see intricate relationships on games. It is something amazing! All Squads are micro-balanced for such rules. Unlike 40k, this is not about a 'settled' army... or an established Squad (like Shaefer's Last Chancers)... this is about the very beginning of a legend. The birth of The Revolution... how the true seed of Chaos infiltrated! It starts small and weak, and then grows in power. By your 2nd Campaign, you could play Chaos Cultists, and make it the next evolution. I undrstand that the IR do not offer many choices that do not have a rarity... but that is the way they are designed.

The 'irony' is that they have resources (those bonuses on exploration make a difference!) and starts with lots of cash... but the LACK access to stuff. The power of the IR is on their people! You may loose 3 Recruits on a game, and you can recruit more without breaking a sweat AND still buy rare items. Other Squads will have to choose.

Well... again, your choice.

Back to your question. What to get? I would one more HWS with another Flamer (errr... I mean a Toxingun!) and/or more cannon-fodder (Workers.)

Very well I will do as asked as your right. I knew you where right, I am smiply trying to make this fair for my buddy, I plan on going with DoZer said and take a Bolter and knowing him he (most likely) Get mad and say that him not getting a rare at the start (other than the boltpistol) and I getting one is the worst rule ever. He will most likely hate your guts for long wile (hell I'v seen him hold a grudge, the same grudge! for 7 years!). Oh well I am not afraid to face down THE RED RAGE! that blood for metal will no doubt uleash on me. I think thoxin gun idea and useing it as a flamer is one of my better ideas.

Can I still get a rippergun? or dose Grug have to smack people with his fists fora bit. Now that I think about it that sounds fun to watch

dwi

First... remember that ALL Squads on TLRB are balanced against each other. If your buddy is playing IG (any Regional Platoon) he can buy ANY one Rare Item that the Captain can immediately use... so he can come up with Carapace Armor, or a Bolter, or a Hellgun, or a Chainsword, or a even a Power Sword... That is the IG advantage. See? You get more money (so you could get 2 more Workers, with weapons) and he can get ONE rare item for his Captain. So the IG will tend to OUTGUN the IR easily, but the IR are resilient and can take a beating. As campaign progress, the IG get access to better weapons, but the IR get access to the Mortar... and the mutants are something to fear!

If your buddy will play Orks... he will barely get ANY gear whatsoever. Most of his Boyz will start bare fisted. Unfair? Far from it! They have T4, so the IG and IR will need 5's to wound! That Nob is brutal too! The Eldar start with 'powerful' weapons... but they are expensive! So they Squad is small, thus initially can be routed with ease.

Tell your buddy to join the forums. Unlike other games in which you are stuck with whatever rules there are... you guys not only have access to Designers and Contributors... but your voice and opinion can shape the game!

The last campaign, my Ogryn could not reach the fight... so it make little difference I could not start with a gun. By Game 3, not only he had a Ripper Gun, but a full set of Armor and Helmet!!! Just give time for the Squad to mature! It is fun to see them grow!

Done reworked list. Can you give me the ups and downs with this list now?
Oh do I have a good amount of guys now?

dwi

Seems pretty solid to me... those Officers start well armored, so they will kick major booty... and those mutants are made of 'awesome juice'... and you have an Ogryn!!! Yikes... the bad guys are here!

Good news Mr Matthias "Silent Death" Riel is almost done. All I need is a bolt pistol.
I also made him a cloke, but I wont tell you how! I only tell my tade secrets to my VEREY best friends. Trust me you guys are my friends (some of my only friends) but you arnt there yet You can gusse if you want


dwi

Uhhh... question? Mathias is an Imperial Guard Jenkala's Urban Fighters exclusive Special Character. Are you playing Jenkala or is it your buddy, Mr. Angry? HA! Also... post the picture of the model... so the guessing game begins!

TLRB, Trading Section - Buying New Equipment wrote:

Rare items are those which are harder to find, more likely because they are in high demand or hard to manufacture. When forming a new Squad (to start a new Campaign) players are allowed to buy items with a Rare value of 5 or less as if they were Common Items. This represents the time & effort invested in forming the Squad.

OPPPS!!! My bad. Thank the Emperor I'm writing the book. I was wrong... I remember we changed this AFTER you brought the point LONG time ago. Again, I'm sorry.

*exasperated sigh* OK, WELL THAT MAKES THIS A PAIN DON'T IT!!!
Well I ain't in a good mood now, after going throgh all this and us frogeting this and all. But you did say that it dose not matter haveing weapons for the ogryn at start so....

As I plan on playing the Jenkalas I won't take a ripper gun to be fair.

dwi

Hit a ANOTHER snag (boy I seem too be gettins those alot don't I?) My Jenkala's are a small force, VERY SMALL!

Captain Ernst Willhelm 60creds
Bolter 27creds, Mesh Armour 17creds, FragG 6creds.=120 creds (not bad for a leader in my book)

Both my Sergeants Stubbs and Hen are 78creds each with a lasgun and mesh armour and FragG each (also not bad)

However my lieutenants are 100 CREDS EACH! Why? Well I have them each with mesh armour and FragG, laspistol and sword. Now I wonder if it would just be best just to strip em down to lasgun MA and FG like Hen and Stubbs, My beef is that laspistols are 20 creds each! WTF! This will leave me with 125 creds or something!

Help!

dwi

Well... first, check TLRB. That's what I do! Th e Ogryn's Ripper Gun is Rare 4, as well as the Kurzickan Armor; and the Kurzickan Helmet is Rare 3. You can start with a decked Ogryn... but that is 65 points that you are sinking on him.

On the Lieutenants... start with autoguns and skip the sword and grenades... up grade later.

Remember that the 'base' pistol is the Slugger (15 credits)... the autopistols are weaker and give bonuses to Armor. Good starting weapons. See? Even when you are allowed to start with Rare 5 items or less... it is hard!

*note* Please do not double-post... just edit your last post. Thanks!

Sorry about that. But why are laspistols 20 creds? I know your doing it for game reasons but still, laspistols are only just better that autopistols and lasguns the same. Read the fluff then do the price. Laspistols 8creds, lasguns 15 creds.
Thats the way I see it anyway

dwi

Game mechanics. Take the Slugger as the base cost. Now, compare it to an autopistol. It has worse stats and its Special Rules have 'negative' effects. The all reduce the price substantially. Now, take the laspistol; better stats & no negative effects (as a matter of fact, you can increase its power with Hot Packs!) Now, rarity ALSO is a contributor to its costs; the real-world economics of supply & demand indicate that the scarcer the item the higher the cost.

NOT true for game mechanics! For game purposes (read... FUN FACTOR) this would be punishing the player twice; not only you have to collect a high amount of money, but you also need 'more luck' to find it. This particular revelation makes items more available in the game. For Death Squads, rarity decreases cost... think of it as paying part of the price in 'luck' rather than 'money'.

For example, pound per pound, a Sniper Rifle (that ALSO requires the fighter to have a particular Skill) would need a rarity roll of 12 and cost 100 credits. Now I ask you... when would your Squad would get a weapon that requires 1 Skill, deprives the Squad of 5 other rare items and costs as much as 4 basic Recruits? We WANT players to use different items and experiment.

You want to start 'well equipped' with laspistols? Great! Do it!!! You will have less models that someone else who has crappy gear. You want the perfect Squad? Play a Campaign... you will get it by game 10. You can NOT appreciate how fun a shotgun until you are 'stuck' with autopistols.

Remember... as you said, we have complicated math. We can revise weapon costs (for the 6th time)... but I would not hold my breath. The wargear, on the other hand is COMPLETELY out of wack. Suggestions won't work too well, because we need to do some base lines to create a calculator. This is scheduled for the release AFTER v0.5.0.

*Sigh* True, but I never said I wanted you to cange it! I just said that it DOSE NOT ift 40k fluff IN MY MIND I say everthing for fluff (and sometimes game) reasons! NEVER for the "I have the best list I can get so I will have the chance at winning" thought. If my lists seem to make you think I am trying to make the "perfect" squad (what the hell is a perfect squad anyway???) you are wrong!
If your not going to make it fluffy, if I have to down grade to autoguns to have a good time (and to stand a chance) I will, no probs I'll just say that they are crappy lasguns, but I can tell you this right now, I'm not going to waste 23ceds for a basic weapon that has a cheaper counter part (shotgun) that can do the same if not a little more that the lasgun for 16creds in a campain. I have always told it like it is and I am sticking to it. If you think this makes me a !@#$%^& then so be it.
I don't care what people think of me anymore, I know thats where my lifes at, sad ain't it?

(EDIT: Anyway now that I got that of my chest, I might rework it tonight, Y'all have fun )

dwi

Ok well lets look at it this way.

Normally an IG PLATOON would be issued the wargear, as such lasguns etc.......

But your not playing a platoon......your playing a squad......who is on its own.....without any refit/repair/quartermaster station.......who can only use what they have direct access too.

Second, whats the difference between a lasgun and autogun......It's only a difference in AP. (Lasgun is AP 6 whereas Autogun is AP-). Now how effective is that really from the start of the game? Chances are your opponent is going to take a cover save before any armor initially, just because covers saves are more abundant, and they offer a better chance of saving the wound.

Lastly, lets look at what else the lasgun offers you. An autogun is just a straight up S3 weapon, that does not offer any other benifits. Whereas the lasguns do. You can purchase hotshot power packs after the first game (and at initial recruitment if you are allowing rare items). That means you will be blasting people at on average a 3+ to-wound, with no armor saves whatsoever.

Now you also argue that the shotgun is the cheaper counterpart to the lasgun....how so? Sure you get two shots at 12", and its an assualt with a cool shuffle rule, but can you upgrade the power of the shot? Can you "reach out and touch someone" at 24"? No you cannot. The two weapons are used for two VERY different things. The shotgun benifits you if your charging forward trying assualt someone, whereas the lasgun benifits you if you are sitting back blasting at targets of opportunity. They are two very different weapons that are used in two very different ways (just like in real life I might add).

Also you say that downgrading to autoguns is not effective. Let me tell you this, my autoguns on my squads have done more damage than any lasguns in any other squad......why you ask? Because I pack a SHIT load of them. Never EVER underestimate the power of workers with cheap autoguns. A worker costs 15, and the autogun costs 13....thats a grand total of 28 credits a model. With the renegades I can almost max out the squad with just workers and officers, and just with the SHEER amount of shots that I would have would mean that I WILL be wounding if not killing someone. Now imagine if I didn't run that squad forward, if I just sat back and let you come into my killbox, imagine what would happen then. Your shotguns would be of no use because I wouldn't let you get close enough to use them.

The weapons are created in a way that forces you to use strategy in how you employ them. It is our 'Ninja Design" behind them.

Don't say BS because the weapon you want does not fit into your strategy, instead use the weapon that does.

dwi wrote:

*Sigh* True, but I never said I wanted you to cange it! I just said that it DOSE NOT ift 40k fluff IN MY MIND I say everthing for fluff (and sometimes game) reasons! NEVER for the "I have the best list I can get so I will have the chance at winning" thought. If my lists seem to make you think I am trying to make the "perfect" squad (what the hell is a perfect squad anyway???) you are wrong!
If your not going to make it fluffy, if I have to down grade to autoguns to have a good time (and to stand a chance) I will, no probs I'll just say that they are crappy lasguns, but I can tell you this right now, I'm not going to waste 23ceds for a basic weapon that has a cheaper counter part (shotgun) that can do the same if not a little more that the lasgun for 16creds in a campain. I have always told it like it is and I am sticking to it. If you think this makes me a !@#$%^& then so be it.
I don't care what people think of me anymore, I know thats where my lifes at, sad ain't it?

(EDIT: Anyway now that I got that of my chest, I might rework it tonight, Y'all have fun )

dwi

Hhehehe... I know EXACTLY how you want to play... you and I are kindred spirits! We play for fluff and the story it can be generated. Your lists do not reflect ANY kind of power gaming (at least to me!) The thing is that I have learned to think as a game designer. It is not an easy thing to do... we have to think and balance the game on startup, medium and long campaigns. I have learned (the hard way) to respect the professionals (like some in GW) as well as being able to question them, all as a developer to developer, rather than gamer to developer. Unlike approaching many developers, Death Squads is OUR project. As a gamer, I share your concern about the cost balancing... and it is only until I see it as a game balancing fact that the player in me quiets down. I wanted to share this experience with you.

Above all, I really appreciate when you question things. It means you have a critical eye and are willing to express you opinion for the betterment of the game. THANKS!!!

The autoguns are not crappy; they have a function that fits their purpose. Think of it like ancient warfare. First stone & bone weapons... then animal hide armor to counter them. Then obsidian weapons... and cured leather armor to counter. Then brass vs bronze... then bronze vs iron... iron vs steel, then crossbows vs plate. then bullets... etc. For Death Squads, autoguns work as good as lasguns for un-armed opponents. As they advance and start getting armor, you are 'forced' to upgrade... lasguns. More armor? Then get hot-packs... and so on.

Although Dozer discussed (very well) the shutgun, I want to emphasize that it is a different weapon with a different function. Its like a fresh water vs a salt water fishing rod and gear; both are used on fishing, but the specific functions make them inappropriate for any other environment.

I like (personally) that you stick to your guns (no pun intended!) It creates natural, civilized and productive discussions.

DoZer: I just said that I would rather spend 16creds than 23 in a campian. I don't mind takeing one or three las weapons in the start as I have the money for that, but later on? no. In a one off battle I would go with lasguns no word of a lie there. I know how autoguns are IN GAME, I still think it's a downgrade (fluff wise). I might still keep the lasguns on my Sergeants though, they are vital (in my mind) to my plans, with the "Good Ol' Serge" rule I can roll on his leadership. I am not going to underestmate that.

Mordheimer: Ah! somebody who understands


dwi