Why I don't like to play 40k

In all honesty I don't like 40k that much. Don't get me wrong, I love the story and the models but something always gets along the way when I try to be a gamer. I'm not sure what it is. Trying to paint and model the best figures I can and getting curbstomped by some dude who can't be bothered with basing his minis comes to mind but that could just be sour grapes. Jervis Johnson's been writing a fair amount about contracts between gamers and the "feely" side of wargaming over the last few years. When I approach a table and see unpainted miniatures I'm already calling breach of contract. The other player has already wrecked it for me. Call me an elitist jerk.

Looking for an analogy I chose electronic gaming as the victim. Consider how you feel when you play a game that feels incomplete. Broken mechanics pitiful textures, even some stuttering or clipping when things are in motion. Look around the internet and look at the posts that you find. The abuse heaped on developers and game makers in this industry is typically acidic and uncompromisingly critical. Like Joe Slattern is going to get up from trashing this vid and program the title to end all titles before second breakfast rolls around. As an elitist jerk on a real world table I have the the audacity to want some some degree of immersion when I'm participating in an imaginary war. I don't have any expectation to be playing against golden demon winning models because I'll never be capable of fielding them myself. I just want to play with someone who wants to TRY to paint the best army they can and try to improve their hobby skills.

As a final analogy as to why I am offended consider meeting someone for coffee who doesn't show. You wait about a bit as time passes and wonder what's up. Give them a call and ask if something came up or they might have forgotton if you'd agreed to the meet-up a while back.

"No, I just couldn't be bothered, I can't believe you are giving me grief and being such a dick", he/she says End of rant

Not played 40k in its 'pure' form for almost 2 years. Power gaming is what got me about it. I want to play my army (which at least has some painted minis in it) in a fluffy battle and end up playing against some idiot who brings out a shaped cardboard box on legs, with toilet roll guns, claiming its a 'WARHOUND TITAN'!

I know I could have said 'Apocalypse? No, not today!', but I was young and naive. This same player also knows I have only one unit capable of touching that beast and is going to spend the next few turns targeting that unit. Boring, frustrating and typical of 40k gaming as I see it today.

This is why I love DS and am much more interested in other games e.g. zombicide, incursion etc. It took a while for my model addiction to start wearing off though!

Love the fluff, love the models, love converting (and sometimes painting), but I hate power gamers!

Laney

Quote :

some idiot who brings out a shaped cardboard box on legs, with toilet roll guns, claiming its a 'WARHOUND TITAN'!

This. I love a good conversion, but some power-gamer "ghetto-bashing" some ugly garbage to take advantage of ridiculous rules is just inherently wrong. Like putting carts before horses, and turds into mouths seeking nourishment

For me, it's simply the rules. There's so much left up to luck. The game is mostly determined by your list and chance calculation. Nothing wrong with chance calculation in and by itself, but in 40k it's excessive: the sheer randomness of the game never made me feel in control. I thought I was just a bad player, but the game just isn't tactical enough.

As our new designer-motto for Death Squads goes: "I want to be outplayed, not outlucked!"

At this point, I've pretty much sold all my non-DS 40k and Fantasy stuff. Completely done with GW, their policies, their awful focus on making money over having fun and their crappy rule systems.

@Horrid: OUch~! That sucked. Sorry to hear. How many points in 40k is a Titan? It has to be a lot:



@Arachas: Exactly.

@Da Bank: Fortunately this was Laney's pain; If I'd seen something like that coming I would have came up with any excuse not to participate. If I remember right even the scout titans are at least 700 points.

Luck is a big issue but I find predetermination to be a more galling prospect. The rise of listbuilding via the internet really killed this for me. In my local area it is disheartening how many armies look similar. It's insulting when some toss leers at you after winning like he's the "grand strategist" when all he really did was roll 6s more than you (dude got his "choices" for his army from some souless maven troglodyte of the internet). I've still haven't had any takers at the shop to play a game of chess.

The blatant rise of of the marine (all flavours). Is there anything these armies can not do? The amount of design time spent inventing deus ex units for this force are mind boggling. I do like the story of the space marines and one of the best things about the army is they are even more sandbox (DIY) than the guard with the existing model ranges. The army is so point and click and spoon fed Curious George could give you a stomping if his dice stayed in the mean of the bell curve.

Feeling the pain. Since getting back into the hobby, I've only played two games. In the first, the guy I played couldn't even be bothered to attach his models to their bases, so they just laid on the table. Nothing worse then being charged by an unpainted, unbased mob of orks. The second, they were at least painted, but my opponent kept sulking whenever things didn't go his way. Since those games, the new rules have arrived. And yet, I can't build up the enthusiasm to actually buy them.

I think a lot of it is, ideally, you need to find good friends who are into playing. I haven't, so I just collect for the joy of painting and converting.

One day, my models will see table top use in a fun environment...one day...

There seems to be a lot of 40k angst in here.

I am definitely bad for playing games with unpainted models. I am a really slow painter and spend way too much time on each model. I am never able to fully paint armies for large games.

My biggest frustration with GW games is the changing scale of games. I got really put off fantasy when every unit became 30+ strong. Although it is more "realistic" it is no more tactical in my opinion. In 40k the games seem to keep getting larger and dominated by large monsters and huge expensive kits.

I like GW models, but I definitely prefer the skirmish scale of games. It would be great if they would put together and support a skirmish game again.

horrid wrote:

The army is so point and click and spoon fed Curious George could give you a stomping if his dice stayed in the mean of the bell curve.

Hey! Don't mess with George! My daughter loves him...

Interesting topic, mainly because it stresses the point why I don't play 40k or Fantasy anymore; when I do my stinking best to complete an army in time I might expect that my opponents do the same. Is it one unit a friend wants to try out then that's an other thing. One time on a Grand Tournament I spent my whole friday evening and night to finish that last unit of goblins and the next day on the tournament my 2nd opponent was using carboard bases and most of his models weren't even primed! Screw that!
That's why I rather play small games like DS these days.

Somewhat off topic, but here is a question for the masses:

Would you rather play with and against an army that is completely painted, but to a basic tabletop standard or with/against an army that is a labour of love with well painted models and interesting themes and conversions?

I am genuinely interested. I would love to hear some opinions on this.

Quote :

Would you rather play with and against an army that is completely
painted, but to a basic tabletop standard or with/against an army that
is a labour of love with well painted models and interesting themes and
conversions?

Certainly the former but I don't resent or have any bad feelings for someone who chooses the latter.

In either case both are armies the hobbyist has invested their time and dedication into. Neither approaches the "shades of wrong" I see when confronted with legions of "raw" grey plastic. I recognize it takes a while to paint an army and some people really enjoy playing. A touch of grey isn't an issue if I see someone is working toward completing their force.

The kicker is someone who has no intention of ever working on their stuff. I know quite a few players who begin play with the most colours colours blocked out to get a unit on the table. The catch is here they have done it to the best of their ability and look toward bringing their army to the next level over time. It makes all the difference when compared to models that have three colours slapped on to meet a bunker requirement that will never be revisited because the owner knows they have successfully reached "minimum standard".

As modellers and painters we all have different experience and ability. When I look at the efforts of a young person with their first models I will definitely view that differently than someone who has been playing for years who just doesn't care.

@ Arachas: That's only because your daughter hasn't had to play a game with Curious George

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Got to be the labour of love - however I'm happy to play with/against 'basic' models. My shame is the lack of proper painted terrain!

Plus (this is the danger of nicely painted labour of love models) - one of my lads decided to play target practice with a bunch of my models and his toy cars tonight! It was a little heartbreaking to find finished models bashed into pieces (fortunately he was in bed we I got back!) - 12 (some painted, some not) got broken up - some needed superglue and three will need proper surgery!

Laney

@laney-mate, sympathies on the broken models. Once had my goddaughter decide to see if my storm raven really flew...not good fun.

@narc-I got to admit, I'm not the best painter. Most would consider my level of painting to be table top level. But I convert and paint every model in my collection to the very best of my ability. I think the phrase "labour of love" has already been used, and I'd want to echo that. I'd rather play with people who have done their best, then against a professionally painted army that has no character or soul.

My two pennies worth.

Matt

This is the kind of creativity I love on the other hand... The Cubes of Tzeentch army (see the thread on Dakka Dakka) is weird and must really freak players out on the tabletop (but isn't that what Tzeentch is all about?), but a really original concept.



Is this cool or garbage?

Laney

Those cubes are hilarious.

Laney-Really sorry to hear that happened to your models. Must be tough as you put so much time into each of them.

I haven't played WH40k Since I left it at the end of 2nd Edition and the beginning of the 3rd Edition.

I loved my 2 Blood Slaughterers
for those who don't recall them they looked like these guys.


I also can recall having to write a programme for my ROBOTS!!! of course they usually just sat there or they shot up my own guys.

Or how about the old school chaos dreadnoughts they used to kill more of my chaos army then my enemy.

I moved away from WH40k due to them changing the blister packs from having just the right amount of troops to having one less then your required so you then needed to buy an additional pack [where before 1 was enough] which now gave you two extra minis so you now bought a third pack and so on and so forth etc etc...

I moved into WHFB and played unitl around the 4th edition and in the end gave it all up due to price hikes, and other changes that I did not like at the time.

the one thing I had to do was pay for my own minis I did not have wealthy parents who would buy me the latest bit of kit. Instead I worked each weekend, and holidays doing crappy jobs like blueberry picking, raspberry picking, then I would buy my new commander, tank or squad spend ages cutting it from the sprue, and then try my best to paint it to the best of my skill. NOT ONCE did I play with any mini that wasn't at least undercaoted, and had three colours. most were dry brushed and had decals on them and were BASED!!!!...

I came to one games day [those were in the glory days when over 50 people wouldshow up to a Sunday club day. you had to book tables and also try and then find an opponent which usually wasn't to hard.

To my horror I was facing off against a 10 year old [I was about 14ish back then]

and seriously it looked like he had dunked his minis into a big bucket of ultramarine house paint. he had three new rhinos, a predator and two dreadnoughts. which would have taken me years to save for.

that was the end for me how could some snot nosed rich kid do that to those minis and then expext not to be laughed at.... plus he whinned all through out the game. in the end my commander pulled the pin on his vortex grenade and Fraked himself and the rest of his squad to the warp,

I was really into WH40k having at one time or another owning lqarge armies of:
Space Wolves
Blood Angels
Eldar
Chaos Khorne
Chaos Nurgle
Imperial guard

for WHFB:
Orcs and Goblins!!!!!!
loved my snotling pump attack cart,Doom divers, and Wolf riders they ROCKED!!!!!!.

I do miss those day not now WH40k and even WHFB both no longer appeal to me and quite frankly I see no attraction in playing LARGE scale games.
In New Zealand Skirmish games ARE the Norm there are still those Fan-boys who play, buy and rant about how good WH40k is but they are slowly dying out and being replaced by gamers who enjoy a wide range of games that are quick, easy on the wallet and don't take up much space/time.

I think Mord could easily create a universe for Deathsquads, make weapons that are cool, races that the players would enjoy, swap it to D10, jump on Kickstarter and MAKE IT his OWN game!!!

where he could even be paid for it. Hell if he did this I'd be first in the line to buy the rule book.

sorry for the rant......

LGW

Lord GreyWolf wrote:

I think Mord could easily create a universe for Deathsquads, make weapons that are cool, races that the players would enjoy, swap it to D10, jump on Kickstarter and MAKE IT his OWN game!!!

where he could even be paid for it. Hell if he did this I'd be first in the line to buy the rule book.

I have thought about that a lot lately...
What would it need to make that happen? Write out/replace all the GW names for units etc?

Change all of the WH40k reference out and replace with his own reality.

It could be done just need a sector of space and various races.

all you do is change the name:

Eldar = Eldrah
Orcs = Ord
Chaos = The Fallen, Darkkin, Voidwalkers, Tormentors
Space Marines = The Legion
Squats = Dwamen
Imperial Guard = Children of Mord

Location: The Khard Expanse
Why: the Khard sector has recently been found by the The Legion. First reports from probes have shown high levels of Kardium a mineral that is used in the construction of almost all technology in the Mord Empire. Until the Legion had found the Portal and the Khard sector Khardium was only found in small pockets on isolated worlds with in Mordium space. Once news of the Khard expanse leaked to the Outter Rim, Dark space, Eldrahen Empire, and Ord Space small forces of Cutters raced to the Portal and the Khardium Expanse.
How: The Portal is a narrow part of space that transports any one who enters it into the Khard Sector. The Legion lost three Oemga class crusiers before they realised the ships were to large to enter the portal. Smaller Orion cutters were sent through with out any lose. Cutters from all of the Races found in the known universe now converge on one small sector of space.

Khard Expanse:
The Legionares who went through the Portal found a space torn assunder with primal forces. Khardium is every where, the Legion started mining as soon as they entered normal reality. It was not long before other ships appeared in the Khard Expanse. the Legion of the Green Shard tried to stop the horde of small cutters but were overwhlemed and their ship destroyed by the advancing ships. The remaining Legion ships were able to hold off the attacking ships and defeat them once help arrived from the C.O.M fleet.

DeathSquads:
No longer able to bring large bodies of troops together in one location the races of Mord must now rely on small forces of mena dn women who raoms the Expanse in the search of Khardium. All of this mineral is sent back to the Mord Empire or smuggled back to the Ord, Eldrah, Dwamen, it did not take long for the combined might of the Legion and the Children of Mord to control the Portal.

==============================================================

that lot of dribble took me 20minutes to come up with and write.
I am sure Mord could Do WAY BETTER then I DID.

LGW

I've recently been playing/reading the Fading Suns universe, both the video game and RP game. I think it's more of a Dune rip than a 40k rip, but theres tons of overlap all around. And I don't really know the timeline for any of them.

I've often though of how easily we could adapt DS to fit into that world, which includes plenty of: the Empire fallen from grace, Humanity spanning the galaxy, and lost technological advances. Tons of Early Rennaisance in a Space Opera setting.

Granted than we'd have Holistic or Redbrick or whoever happens to own it these day to deal with, IP wise. It'd be a great fit though if they wanted to do a RP inspired Skirmish Game, set in that Universe.

Lord GreyWolf wrote:

I think Mord could easily create a universe for Deathsquads, make weapons that are cool, races that the players would enjoy, swap it to D10, jump on Kickstarter and MAKE IT his OWN game!!!

Ya know what? That's actually not a bad idea, at all. The switch to D10 is sure to change the game, fundamentally. It might not really appeal to the 40k crowd anymore, after that.

@Laney: Sorry to hear about your models. Your son is playing a wargame pretty similar to the first one I ever played. A friend and I had a pile of green army men and set them up on sides and took turns bowling with a golf ball across no mans land. We had lego fortifications but the worst of the lot were those tricky snipers in prone positions.

I'd have to say cool over garbage. Looking at the cubes I immediatly think about the borg, Kubrick and Clarke's monolith and the Saruthui and their tetrascapes from Eisenhorn. On top of that the bases look sharp and some time and effort went into making them look that way.

I've forgiven my boys (it was actually both of them)! and pieced together the models.

I actually play the very same green army men game with my eldest. I just thought he knew not to touch 'daddy's stuff'.

On the idea of shifting from 40k - I love the 40k fluff and to do a cheap knock-off wouldn't seem right. This project to me was always to meant to honour the 40k fluff (including the bits that GW themselves don't seem to cherish, but everyone else does e.g. genestealer cults, renegades and cultists (only reappeared recently), even squats in the long run). The stories and fluff don't seem to be the problem, it's either the plastic toy making monster that GW has become, the power gaming, the early teens clogging up the shop (sorry, but GW shops smell as well!) with no sense of sportsmanship or good grace when the win (or lose) and the fact that the very name Games Workshop is a lie. When I started playing rogue trader GW had only just made Blood Bowl, Talisman, Warhammer Fantasy, WHFB, Block War, Dark Future, Chainsaw Warrior (not all of these were great games!). Mordheim, Necromunda, Space Hulk, Space Crusade, Epic etc came a little later. Game Workshop is a truer sense of the company - they used to create new games, now they just work the Warhammer cash cow and trade on Tolkien's creativity. Where is the new stuff?!

Sorry - rant over...

However, to take a well crafted mechanic (still needs lots of work even in the D6 iteration) and create a new fluff is potentially very exciting. It would have to be more original than fantasy creatures in space V2.0 (which was pretty much the madness of the original rogue trader game).

I very badly want to create a game. Since I commented on the DeStoksey thread I started thinking about the idea more seriously. My ideas are pretty crude but they can be refined.

I'm not much of a rules guy; my activities here are pretty much limited to the paint threads but I think I know the kind of game I want to play.

I grabbed a copy of the design justification I have on a word doc; I explained myself better there than I might if I reiterated. This is why I want to play games..

Quote :

My interest
in the miniature painting and modeling hobby began with roleplaying games in
the mid 1980’s. My first exposure to
“little men” was probably Grenadier or Ral Partha figures I was using to
represent characters in the Dungeons and Dragons games I was playing at the
time. I don’t recall them having any
great degree of utility in our gaming sessions back then. I think we had a squared grid they all stood
on that demonstrated our parties marching order for anyone who was interested
in that sort of thing but wasn’t one of those people.





The sense
of wonder I remember feeling at the time was simply picking up the finely
crafted little person and being able to say, “This one is mine”. The scrawlings and scribbling I had thrown
down on dog-eared piece of loose leaf had been given form. Here was the avatar from my imagination
realized. If only he wasn’t a dull grey
piece of lead.





My earliest
efforts at remedying this deficiency were questionable. There wasn’t an internet to suggest how I
might paint things properly and the hobby shops in the area weren’t terribly
interested in having young people present unless they were engaged in act of
paying for something and certainly didn’t want to teach them anything about
painting so I beat a hasty retreat and took my lump of lead back home to and
had at it with my Testor’s enamels. Looking
back what I painted was horrible but it doesn’t detract from the enjoyment that
I had then. Priming models wasn’t a
consideration and my crude brushes took second stage to a “fine detail”
straight pin when I was painting eyes.





From these
abortive first efforts I came upon Jervis Johnson’s Blood Bowl. I’d used a couple Citadel models to stand in
for characters over the years but this was the first GW game I had ever played. The game was a blast and better still the
campaign system promised that my squad was going to evolve and improve, or be
mercilessly mashed into the pitch. Around the same time boxes of Citadel Colour paint sets were being shelved at the local
hobby shops and then came the “How to Paint…” flyer and White Dwarf.





Then at the
end of the nineties came Mordheim by Tuomas Pirenin. There was so much to appreciate about this
game. Without even looking at how it
played the artwork that John Blanche and the art department created blew me
away. Moving past those inspiring
visuals and setting was a robust campaign that made me want to build models and
even more strangely play games.





I set out
hoping to design a game that would allow for fluid and enjoyable one off play,
but more importantly invite players interested in playing a campaign to go on a
journey with their characters.








My hobby sensibilities concerning gaming were
probably most influenced by my RPG roots and are perhaps best summarized by
that epiphany I had all those years back as I picked up that lead model and
rescued him from the monochrome marching order queue

Sorry about the way the text sits on the page. It looks like a case of dueling formats. I really want to play a game at 54mm with maybe 4 models that I can lavish detail on. I don't think 54mm gaming has to be half as expensive as the powers that be might make it out to be. The d10 is the way to go; the mean is much longer which makes for more possibilty and tension.