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 Ronin League 2: Week 1 Game 2 for Boss Facepunch

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bossfacepunch



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Join date : 2009-10-28
Location : Castro Valley, California (USA)

PostSubject: Ronin League 2: Week 1 Game 2 for Boss Facepunch   Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:14 pm

*Disclaimer* The market demanded certain squads that you guys haven't gotten around to yet. So in order to maximize the size of our playgroup we have some homebrew squads. We also decided to keep routing but lowered the threshold to 50%.

Squads: Orks (me Puke) vs Chaos Space Marines (homebrew)
Scenario: Defend the Find
Winner: No one! (The game ended in a tie so we both took a loss.)

Facepunch (nob) and the ladz were the defenders in this scenario. The building they had to defend was a 3 story building with numerous access ramps and a ladder leading to the second floor. Grok (flash git) deployed on the third floor and the rest of the squad deployed on the second. Since the chaos marines had no ranged weapons and the orks had guns and the advantage of defending one man wide choke points it turned into a meat grinder of a fight.

In the first couple of turns every ork with a gun stood and blasted away at the chaos marines as they approached the building, taking one or two of the weaker fighters out. The ladz also wisely used their smoke grenades to block access to the ladder for most of the battle.

Most of the chaos marines were force into a conga line on one ramp, a lone marine took the second ramp and the rest of the squad spent the game either laying low on the first floor of the building or unsuccessfully trying to climb up to the second floor.

Both sides evenly traded bodies, but if it were not for Bizbang (weird boy) spamming the +1 Attack power and Facepuch's lucky headshot against the enemy leader, that sword and whip wielding chaos marine leader would have chewed through the squad.

After the battle one of the kommandoz didn't survive and one of the Clubbaz proved he has what it takes to kick in skulls and was promoted to an officer. Facepunch proceeded to spend the spoils on trinkets (lucky charm) and a power klaw, both for himself. When questioned about why he didn't buy stuff that would be more useful to the squad as a whole his response was, "'Cause screw you, dats why!"
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Mordheimer



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PostSubject: Re: Ronin League 2: Week 1 Game 2 for Boss Facepunch   Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:12 pm

Hehehe... no pics? Uhhh... Sad Would loved to see the conga-line!

Why did you decided to keep Routing? I think you should read THIS THREAD. Basically, routing forces players who DECIDE to make risky moves to loose the game (even if they DECIDE to sacrifice cannon fodder troops for the success of the mission) and tries to save idiots (like me!) who would risk everything to full-fill their mission. The current Tactical Retreat rules preserve the 'loosing' player fun factor (anyone can quit after loosing 25%) but preserves the player choice.

Like Dozer told me MANY times... if you loose 25% of your guys, you could still win. If you loose 50% of your guys, you probably won't. If the game FORCES you to leave, it robs you from pulling a heroic move and win the day. If the game ALLOWS you to leave and you stay... you die a happy idiot.

Think about it.

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Can't wait until someone invents a time machine so I can go to the specific day in the past that I volunteered for this, so I can kick my own ass.

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Since I ask "What do you think?" to all Staff, I have included it here to save time.

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bossfacepunch



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Join date : 2009-10-28
Location : Castro Valley, California (USA)

PostSubject: Re: Ronin League 2: Week 1 Game 2 for Boss Facepunch   Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:54 pm

I'll try to remember to bring my camera to get some pictures of my games this week. Some of players in the league have some pretty cool models.

The primary mechanical reason we added routing back in was because without it we felt like Leadership had become an irrelevant stat. Each other stat's use will come up during each game you play but unless you're running a Psyker Leadership rarely plays a roll during a game.

While we did add routing back in we didn't remove the option for a tactical retreat at 25%.
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Mordheimer



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PostSubject: Re: Ronin League 2: Week 1 Game 2 for Boss Facepunch   Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:31 am

So... you weighted the 'value' of an Attribute (stat) versus Player Fun... and the stat won? And not any stat... but Leadership? Hehehe... sorry... we had the same argument (back in the day) so I know how this will turn out. Your game... you do what you feel is right for you. Here is some food for thought...

bossfacepunch wrote:
Each other stat's use will come up during each game you play but unless you're running a Psyker Leadership rarely plays a roll during a game.
What do you use Leadership for? THAT is the real issue. If using Psychic Powers (based on Ld) is only used by a specific Unit (Psyker), then Routing is used only by the Squad Leader... one Unit. If the Psyker fails, then only the Psyker is affected and is just an inconvenient situation. Regardless what happened before, you get to adapt, make a new decision and even try again later. It is YOUR decision.

If the Squad Leader fails a FORCED Routing, the game is over. It does not matter what you did before, what you decided or if you decided to make some 'sacrifices' to achieve the goal. One die roll... pure luck... decides the game. This is exactly what you are measuring against 'Ld is not used much'.

This is the argument that made us scratch our heads. We thought about what you guys did... and the argument STILL was valid. Imagine I have 12 guys. I loss 3 out of your super lucky shots and 1 out of my own stupidity. Then I see I'm VERY close to victory by achieving the mission objective. I decide to sent 4 of my guys to form a 'living wall'... I know that if they hold for one Turn, it would be impossible for you to move in to the objective. This can happen in the Drop Zone Scenario. So I send four Fighters. You move in an attack... and kill two of them! YIKES! BUT I still have a chance... one more Turn! If I can stay one more Turn and fight you on the Objective, I can win! I have 6 powerful Fighters (against your 7)... it can be done! We are all willing to sacrifice our lives for The Emperor. Now, in my Turn I'm FORCED a roll that is completely arbitrary (it was 25%, but it was moved to 50%... but it could be 50% + 1 Fighter) and I rolled a 10. I lost the game?

No heroics, not me deciding the 'prize' was not worth it, not me deciding that I would die heroically, not me dying in a 'futile' fight (like The Alamo!)... a simple dice roll. Why do you play at all? why not roll Ld Tests... who ever looses first looses the games? Ld Tests make 'the game' irrelevant.

Yes... Leadership is a 'weak' Attribute. That is something we are aware and are slowly tweaking. Like all Attributes, Ld should affect the individual Fighter and like any other stat, it should NOT decide the outcome of the game. You don't roll an Initiative Test and if failed all Fighters in your Squad collapse and vanish? Even for Necrons that was silly... that is why it was removed. The game FORCES defeat based on a simple roll.

_________________
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The Mordheimer - Death Squads' Chief Editor & Ninja Designer. Bursting with ARACHAS' Dev-Powah™! Puke
Can't wait until someone invents a time machine so I can go to the specific day in the past that I volunteered for this, so I can kick my own ass.

Support Bacteria; it is the ONLY culture some people have!
Since I ask "What do you think?" to all Staff, I have included it here to save time.

DoZer Flamethrower Mordheimer Justice NEEDS to be Served! Maybe 3rd Degree burns will teach you not to Tom Sawyer me to work!

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bossfacepunch



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Join date : 2009-10-28
Location : Castro Valley, California (USA)

PostSubject: Re: Ronin League 2: Week 1 Game 2 for Boss Facepunch   Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:09 pm

I know you like the fluff example of the Alamo and heroic soldiers ready and willing to die for the cause. This is a very cinematic way to view the game and that's a'okay. While your example does give justification for removing the routing mechanic it clashes with the rules presented in the psychology section. If every fighter from chaos space marine to grot has the courage to stand their ground and fight to the death then why have fear and panic?

After reading your linked thread it seems to me the heart of the problem between the pro and anti routing sides of the debate is that routing was both the mechanic that represented squad moral and a way to lose a game. The pro routing side feels that having a mechanic to represent squad moral is important and they can live with that mechanic also ending the game. While the anti routing side feels that routing causes a negative play experience that needs to be removed and they can live with there being no mechanic for squad moral. Both sides place value on different sides of the mechanic. That's why your argument that removing routing is a good thing is met with skepticism/resistance by the other side. We didn't think there was a negative play experience in the first place so for us the change removed a mechanic we liked and as collateral damage Leadership was further weakened.

Since my primary concern is not to have another way to end the game but to have something to represent squad moral, I'd be more then happy to have routing replaced by some other mechanic for squad moral. Until a better solution for squad moral is purposed though we'll likely keep our 50% rout (at the very least until league 2 ends).
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ClausLars



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PostSubject: Re: Ronin League 2: Week 1 Game 2 for Boss Facepunch   Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:06 pm

I pretty much agree with boss here...just not enough that I'd put routing back in.

I just looked over the Panic rules again, though it doesn't specify when a test is required, I'd assume that is mentioned in the rules causing the test. Panic seems similar to what I would want, almost something like All Alone tests in Mordheim...except I know how much I always forgot those.

I think most of us would prefer some kind of mechanic to represent that even if you commander is willing to stick it out to the end (or use you as fodder) your troops may not be able to bring themselves to hold up their end.
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Mordheimer



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PostSubject: Re: Ronin League 2: Week 1 Game 2 for Boss Facepunch   Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:04 pm

If every fighter from chaos space marine to grot has the courage to stand their ground and fight to the death then why have fear and panic?
Those are feelings (or state of being) that affect a single individual and are fairly particular to a specific situation. Fear could be worded as hesitation; after all, you can still fight while affected with Fear but your reactions are slowed (represented by limiting the To-Hit rolls.) Once you get over this 'hesitation' you can act normally. Panic, on the other hand, is the irrational terror that a Fighter may feel when he truly believes all is lost ... basically his Fight or Flight Response takes over and he runs away. You also have a chance to get over the 'instinct' and act normally. The only time you are asked to do a Panic Test is by a specific Critical Hit... something VERY rare, which could justify such 'strange' action. (Here you go ClausLars!)

Not only these two psychologies affect an INDIVIDUAL Fighter, but you can recover from them. In top of that, there are 'methods' (or I should say tactics and strategies) to minimize impact. Some Fighters are Immune to Psychology, or you could position other Fighters (i.e. IG Captain, etc) that could decrease their chances of failure or increase they chances of recovery... there are even re-rolls for such counters.

At then end, failing a Fear or Panic Test does NOT mean you automatically loose the game. This is very important. Depending the conditions, you may loose the game (you feel it was critical that the Fighter passed the Fear Test), but then you could roll a 6 To-Hit and roll a Critical Hit that grants you victory... VERY HEROIC! If you fail a Routing Test, the game is over. No last ditch efforts, no paper ticket parades, no "What the hell, let me try this anyway...", no change of plans, no memories of a legendary battle... game is over. Another meh game won (or lost) by a single die roll, regardless if it was a bad strategy that put you in Routing or if it was exactly what you were trying to accomplish the mission and your loses were calculated (thus acceptable.)


Since my primary concern is not to have another way to end the game but to have something to represent squad moral, I'd be more then happy to have routing replaced by some other mechanic for squad moral.
This concept of 'Squad Morale' is a subjective matter. You are 'pretending' that everyone panics and runs like a head-less chickens (definition of routing), yet you can't 'pretend' that your seasoned veterans are wiling to do their best (or even die) for their cause. In a competitive environment, Players will quit after 30% losses... and those who don't quite (even at 50%) are always happy with the result of the game... be it good, bad or (most likely) horrible. After all, it was their decision.

That said, it seems to me that you are looking for 'realism'. You could simulate it this 'lost cause' feeling. You could argue that Routing should be something like "You reach 25% looses, then you roll a Panic Test for every Fighter." This would accurately represent 'morale' at an individual level. I don't think it would work because the mechanic is time consuming; try rolling 8 to 15 Ld Tests EVERY Turn. Anyway, those Fighters that fail are 'forced' to run away; either they 'vanish' (as it happens with Routing... obviously you are NOT concerned at all about how unrealistic this is) or the Fighter could physically suffer Panic and run away (get ready for the opponent to start picking Panic Fighters and killing them) and those that do not fail, stay as normal (but they are at a tactical disadvantage with fewer numbers.) You could create a rule that if the Leader 'flees' everyone else it at a disadvantage (more likely to flee) for this Test, but it is... convoluted. The more you look at how Routing operates, you see how broken it is.


The only thing I can tell you... Play with Tactical Retreat. Allow people to stay if they want... you will be surprised. The people who tend to 'quit' will continue to do so, and those who 'wait until they fail a Routing' would discover it is better to make the decision. Nobody will miss it and everyone will be happier and pleased. You see the disappearance of Cheese tactics (like camping in a roof-top while using powerful long range weapons to pick weak units like Workers or Grots just to reach Routing) and you will see people playing their Squads more freely and making decisions based on what they think is proper, measuring consequences of their actions. You will also notice that Scenario Objectives become the REAL reason to play. Players will stop trying to reach victory by Forced Routing, instead they would either try to complete the mission or hurt the opponent so bad that they flee. All other people who 'opposed' the change accepted this challenge... everyone of them saw (first hand) that the change was good. Wink



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The Mordheimer - Death Squads' Chief Editor & Ninja Designer. Bursting with ARACHAS' Dev-Powah™! Puke
Can't wait until someone invents a time machine so I can go to the specific day in the past that I volunteered for this, so I can kick my own ass.

Support Bacteria; it is the ONLY culture some people have!
Since I ask "What do you think?" to all Staff, I have included it here to save time.

DoZer Flamethrower Mordheimer Justice NEEDS to be Served! Maybe 3rd Degree burns will teach you not to Tom Sawyer me to work!

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bossfacepunch



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PostSubject: Re: Ronin League 2: Week 1 Game 2 for Boss Facepunch   Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:22 pm

We haven't used routing is since you guys first dropped it. Adding it back was something we decided a few weeks ago before starting our current league. So I'm not making a knee jerk reaction here, we have plenty experience playing without routing.

This all came about because those of us who originally introduced the game to the store back in v5(? when routing was still there and before the kroot) over time came to miss the routing rules. So when league 1 ended and we had a meeting to decide what league house rules we'd apply, we original DS/Mordheim guys asked the players that joined after the 6.x update if they'd be interested in adding routing back in, and they were. When league 2 ends we'll have another discussion as a group to decide what league house rules from league 2 should stay and what should go for when we start league 3.

I'm not arguing for you to add routing back to the core rules, I'm just trying to explain why I've been mildly dissatisfied since it was removed.
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Mordheimer



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PostSubject: Re: Ronin League 2: Week 1 Game 2 for Boss Facepunch   Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:40 am

Cool! That is a good feedback to have. Piety you did not shared it before... but it is here, and it IS good! cheers

My question is... "came to miss the rule"? Why?

_________________
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The Mordheimer - Death Squads' Chief Editor & Ninja Designer. Bursting with ARACHAS' Dev-Powah™! Puke
Can't wait until someone invents a time machine so I can go to the specific day in the past that I volunteered for this, so I can kick my own ass.

Support Bacteria; it is the ONLY culture some people have!
Since I ask "What do you think?" to all Staff, I have included it here to save time.

DoZer Flamethrower Mordheimer Justice NEEDS to be Served! Maybe 3rd Degree burns will teach you not to Tom Sawyer me to work!

.
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PostSubject: Re: Ronin League 2: Week 1 Game 2 for Boss Facepunch   Today at 10:16 am

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