Where to start? (IG)

Right on! I did my first pass through the rules (0.5b) today and I'm ready to start designing my IG Death Squad!

... but I have no idea where to start!

From the look of things, Death Squads appears to be a lot like Mordheim. Following Mordheim logic, I should max out on officers and go for as many bodies as possible, picking up better weapons later in the game. Is this true for Death Squads, as well? Or do I want to start out with (for example) a heavy weapons team?

Any of you vets willing to give a newbie some pointers... I would be very grateful!

IA

I never played Mordheim, only Necromunda. But I guess it was similar there.

My Deathsquad Orks started with as much boys as possible and very little equipment and they had a great start in the campaign. Our IG player decided to go for a small elite squad. Few heavily equipped models. He suffered some losses early in the campaign and really had to struggle to compensate these losses. Going for numbers will help compensate casualties. And, as simple as it is, more models mean more attacks mean more dead opponents.

Intrepid Adventurer: I'm glad to hear you read TLRB! It is VERY funny to hear that you 'feel' is much like Mordheim... and Skraag to say that is like Necromunda! adopts many elements from BOTH games, and depending on your personal experiences you get inclined into Mordheim or Necromunda camps. This is done on purpose, so veterans can pick the game in 5 minutes flat. HA! Also, the goal of is to enhance the 40k gaming experience, so we stuck to similar game mechanics... so veterans like you enjoy the transition.

WORD TO THE WISE!!!

The similarities are superficial! Death Squads is NOT Mordheim-in-Space, Updated-Necromunda nor 40k-with-Fewer-Models; I'm NOT saying that you got that impression... but since your group is stable (with veterans of many campaigns!) I want to give you the 'technical scoop'. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of 'little' things... changes that go almost unnoticed by the average player that distinguish as a class on its own. We call it "Ninja Design" ... the concepts are hidden, but are VERY effective. For example... the Turn Sequence.

If you notice, the Turn Sequence goes as follows: Upkeep (recovery, turning models, etc.), Declaration of Charges (but no movement to Assault), Movement (but not entering in Close Combat), Shooting (bang, bang, BANG!) and Assault (move to CC and fight!) What this simple mechanism produces is a more realistic 'cover fire' system, without the idiotic problems of 'Overwatch' ("I won't move until you move!") Think of this as follows... You and your buddy are to enter a room which has one bad guy. You scream to your buddy 'Cover me!' and prepare to rush in (Declare Charge). Your buddy moves in (Movement) and starts shooting (Shooting... duh!). He takes the enemy down with a minor leg wound (for this example, Knocked Down) and you then rush in (Assault) and finish the job. This minor change produces TONS of strategic differences... forcing players to maximize their resources without knowing. !!!

Our objective is to produce a better game, without falling on the Power Gaming (Codex Creep) of recent years. is ALL about the Squads going from ZERO to HERO. That said, I will warn you... there is NO CHANCE that you can make a starting Squad the way you feel is 'perfect'. This is ALSO a design... No matter how much you try, we design the Squads so you feel it is not perfect. It gives you a 'reason' to play... you start getting gear and skills... by game 5 you will catch yourself thinking "this is how I wanted to start playing... not good enough, but kindda cool!" By then, the Squad is 100% yours... with GREAT stories and events attached to everyone. By game 10, you will LOVE your Squad... cheer their victories and be sadden by defeats... and get depressed/angry of one of your Officers die. is about creating the complete experience. Once you finish a Campaign, you will be VERY proud of your Squad, to the point that your Officers will become the 'generals' of your 40k Army... and you would be telling their stories for years to come.


To answer your questions...
Like Mordheim, maximizing your Officers is a 'safe bet'. You will be able to maximize finding resources, so you can buy weapons and armor. There are other ways... but I rather you discover those by yourself.

What IG Regional Platoon catched your eye? Each Squad can be played anyway you please; does NOT punishes the player for playing Mordians as Close Combat Specialists... but doesn't rewards it either. Playing each Squad to the best of its abilities has its rewards (so Mordians benefit from being close together and Catachans for being sneaky). Trust me... I got SCHOOLED when I started playing the mega famous Catachan Squad, The Eye P kers - Sticking it to Chaos where it REALLY hurts!... I started playing them as Cadian, and I got creamed!!! Once I learned 'how' to play Catachans, it was a role reversal... games seemed too easy... but then again, I'm constantly accused of having way too Lucky Dice. I have ZERO Tactical or Strategic mind... but I'm lucky. The only way I can win!

Ohhh crap... I write too much!

I like LOTS of guys with crapy gear... and a Big Unit! It serves as a 'wall'. HA!

Haha, Mordheimer, I love your ramblings already. It shows how much you love this project. Frankly, I'm glad you're willing to take the time to write such elaborate replies! So thank you!

Now that you point it out, there are a lot of differences with Mordheim and Necromunda. Have you played Brutal Conflict as well? I'm curious to know what you feel seperates Death Squads from Brutal Conflict, as they appear quite similar to me (apart from the wealth of detail Death Squads has in terms of weapons and Post Battle Sequence options). Don't shoot me! I'm just a noob asking.... (:

As for my warband. A small, elite squad of Guardsmen is what I had in mind. I see a lot of people play Catachan and although I would not directly name mine Catachan, I must say the Jungle Fighters theme appeals to me. Sneak, snipe and stab in the back. I'm hoping my other Guard-playing friend is appealed by the shootiness of the Mordians.

So what would I like? Snipers, obviously. Flamethrowers sound exquisite , as do big Catachan knives. But I suppose a Cadian squad could take those, as well. Can you explain how the different regions differ in terms of playing? I mean, don't all the teams want to stick to cover, close in and do as much damage as possible? How are the Catachans different from the Urban Guerillas, for example?

And although I love your approach to the game (giving space for your teams to grow), I have but one concern: I need to make a ton of models. First, all the starter level Guardsmen with autoguns (maybe Lasguns?). Consequently, I need to make HW squads (that reminds me: do heavy weapons require a loader?), maybe a big Guardsmen with a stubber, a plasma gunner... I want to start out with those guys, ya know! ;D

Never played Brutal Conflict. Can you post a link (general interest area) so we can all check it out?

Hehehe... not warband... Squad.

Well, let me give you a quick round-down of the Regional Platoons (RP)... from memory. You see, each RP has some particular 'advantages' and items. For example, the Catachans can re-roll one Injury Roll, get bonus to Cover from Vegetation Area Terrain and their Catachan Fang allows re-rolls to-wound. All this is great... but you get thrown to the lions when you discover that in order to use all that, you need to get close. Its harder, when your enemy realizes that! The Mordians, on the other hand, can force a re-roll on the enemy Cover Safe when they shoot (if they are close to their Officers) and other stuff. It is great... but you find yourself 'packing' your Infantrymen close to your Officers (as Mordians do!) which makes you vulnerable to blasts, grenades and flamethrowers. The Death Korps are better at entrenching warfare... sure, you can 'sneak' them and assault the enemy put them in a formation to shoot... but they won't be as good as Catachans or Mordians. Instead they are best using the 'camping' fighting style. If you put them behind a hard Cover (4+) they will stay there happy... blwoing people up with greandes and hiding behind smoke. If you assault them, the typical Korp soldier will be WS 5... at worst negating powerful assault units, killing everyone that dare to get close at best. There are MANY combination to explore... nothing spelled out. We think it makes for a better game.

Cadian: All around average. We are toying with an exclusive Hired Gun (HG) for them... Their strength is in numbers (20 guys) and the 'extra' money, as they do not pay for their RP. This is the 'no-choice choice'. Right now I think they are so vanilla, that people do not see any reason why to play 'em... they may get tweaked. Who knows.

Death Korps: Ahhh... the Masters of Disaster! This guys play BEST when entrenched (behind Cover)... as they get +2 WS when they are Assaulted behind cover. Also, you need to maximize using gas attacks... as they all have gas masks and stuff. They work GREAT defending against Assault-type Squads (like Kroot). We are toying with a special something something for them... we need to decide. So, they are in process of revision.

Catachans: My babies!!!! Hehehehe... sorry. Got emotional right there. They are a VERY aggressive Squad. The Catachan Fang gives a nice advantage to Officers in Close Combat (combined with their Special Rules)... so you may want to maximize them for CC. This means, Pistol & Fangs will be your equipment of choice. Eventually, with cash, you could normalize their shooting. The trick to use them (I learned) is Walk & Hide. Do not Run... the enemy can't shot what they can't see. Pressure the enemy into your position... then JUMP IN!!! Hehehehe... They are VERY solid... play-tested lots of times. They seem to suck at their opposite (shooting) when compared to the others RP's... but have no real disadvantages... they just feel like they suck. If you get over that fear, with time you can gear them for the 'other' half of combat.

Ice Guard: This RP is an adaptation of the Valhallans, with a twist from Madprophet. they excel in moving in from weird places, and if the terrain has multiple levels... watch out! They are almost abusive! Ha!

Jenkala Urban Fighters: A 100% original creation... we wanted to create a 'urban-catachan' group... but it turned out WAY better! Their background is rich and their skills gives them a totally different feel on how to play... with mines, traps, etc. They play as a solid shooting group with a twist. If you are into Sniping... the Jenkala's are your boys! Matthew (Special Character) is THE best!

Mordians: The opposite of Catachans; excellent shooters! They benefit from 'standing in formations' (basically, staying close to Officers) with bonuses on the shooting phase. Like Catachans, they seem suck at their opposite (close combat) but is just an illusion. If you get over that fear, with time you can gear them for the 'other' half of combat.

They have 'exclusive' HGs that enhances their playability. So eventually you can run a mix of your guys and HGs.

Geesss... you are another one of those WYSIWYG freaks? HA! It will be your doom... I tell ya'! I suggest to skip the 'early versions' of models... specially low level Recruits. Put Lasguns on your models... even if they have autoguns. It will be OK.

On terms of Heavy Weapons... they are getting revised as we speak... and NO, you don't need a Loader.

Thanks once again for your great reply!

So far, Catachans look to be my thing (I want to create my own overgrown city kind of terrain, they should fit in nicely). Sneaky and stabby. I take it they can go toe-to-toe with the Orks? Then again, my friends use a lot of urban terrain... and the booby traps do sound very cool (although I feel they should be hidden to the enemy, not just placed on the board. And if that isn't possible, allow the set-up of several more counters, with a couple serving as decoys. That will still keep the other squads guessing!).

Indeed Cadians are very vanilla. Maybe you could make them a little more... shocky? Bonusses with assault and rapid fire weapons, for example? Move and shoot bonusses? 18" rapid fire on lasguns? Not-bulky carapace armor?

And may I suggest doing a droptrooper regional platoon? Having them deepstrike in and stuff... that would be awesome.

So, say I want Catachans: you're saying I should go all-pistol and knife, leaving the rifles at home? Or should I just arm my recruits with rifles, while keeping the officers CC killy?

And what kind of revision for HW's is that?

Thanks for all your help!

Catachans are great! I like 'em... danger, danger, danger! HA! TLRB v0.5.1b is missing (MY FAULT!) the rules for Area Terrain... will be no big issue for 40k players. Jungle terrain will be cool. Remember to take pictures!

Orks have T4... usually requiring 5+ to-wound. The Catachan Fang allows you to re-roll failed wounds, so you will see a higher rate of Orks dying than usual. The trick is to get close!

Your comments on the booby-traps is well deserved... we will look to all those little refinements in due time. For now, if you use booby-traps, play them as written and let us know what you think of them (effective, fun, simple, etc)!

The Cadians need something... but not much. Remember they are 'free' so you start with more cash on hand. We may include a little something for the post game, to simulate they can get better resources... BUT we don't know how this affects the game balance.

Elysian Drop-Troopers... now you know why we put the rules on Flying, but nobody can Fly yet... the Kroot and Chaos Cultists will have a few Flyers, but revisions on Eldar, Orks, IG and IR would include the posibility. It will be nice... so, it is on the works. Just takes time (we are ironing bugs on Core Rules and finishing Squads)



For the Catachans... my Officers have Sluggers and Catachan Fangs. The Recruits, Autoguns. I run my Recruits in front of the Officers (human shields!) with Officers in the back. They all Walk & Hide... the Ogryn (Private George W. Dush) serves as a nice distraction.


Revisions on Heavy Weapons? Wait for the next revision of TLRB! HA! Seriously, we are balancing them out. Definitions on its use... promoting stand & shoot without crippling the fighter and standarized weapons. SIMPLE, yet effective additions. We like to keep it

Don't thank me for any help... pay me with PICTURES! HA! The pleasure is all mine.

Welcome Intrepid Adventurer!

It sounds too me like you've got the right idea with the Catachans (in terms of weapon load out), their officers also get the catachan fangs - very cool. They tend to do well at sneaking into close combat and ripping up opponents later on in the game. The best thing to do is get a couple of practice games under your belt to get a feel for them and then get a campaign going as quick as possible.

I played Urban Fighters (10th/95th South Varangians) in our last campaign (I might build a new IG squad for this year) and I learnt loads about how to play them best - but only after getting my captain ripped to shreds in the first game (Captain Gimpy!). Mordheimer is dead right on the whole WYSIWYG thing - you just can't build every option (my captain needed a whole new model after game 1 due to a bionic eye, leg and arm! - the rest of the campaign not one of the squad needed a bionic replacement)

You could always model a drop troop squad - but use the catachan rules (or urban fighter).

Anyway - just wanted to say hi!

Laney

Laney... your Captain was (is?) cool... but after that 1st game he becamed WAY cooler! hehehehe

Thanks you both. I'll whip up a list ASAP, let you guys shoot holes in it. (:

No list yet... but I have started converting mini's. How do you guys feel about the powerfist? Any good? For starting out? Or should I just stick with Catachan Fang/sword?

In my experience power fists are great . Striking last is less of a handicap in than in Mordheim so you can normally kill them before they strike back. Apparently they are being revised though so hopefully they get better.

I like power fists - particularly the IG ones from a modelling point of view - but I've always hated the Initiative 1/strike last thing with them (except on multi wound models) - It never seemed very fluffy (in the black library books they never seem to take forever to wind up a punch) IMO for them to be almost thunder hammer powerful and soooo slooowww - they should be a mid point between swords and hammers - but I am probably a lone voice on this.

I would go for the power fist purely on the grounds of coolness and make up for it in other areas with some gaming/sensible choices.

Ta Laney

Well... Power Fists are being revised. They are going to be better. By better I do NOT mean more powerful, but that the weapon will 'grow' with the fighter. WTF?!? Hehhehe...

See the simple Sword. You have Attack 1, thus you swing one time with the Sword. You gain +1 Attack in an Advancement roll, so you have 2 Attacks... and guess what? You can attack twice with the sword! The more attacks you get, the more attacks you can make. With the current (v0.5.1b) version of the Power Fist, you get a fixed number of attacks regardless how many attacks you have. That bites... specially when you can have 4 Attacks and actually still do an average of 2. The better you are, the more the 'worse' you get. The Power Fist was created in a time in when T4 was super rare, and T5 was almost impossible to achieve. Now, with the new Squads and weapons, increasing the Strength of the weapon is not that big of a deal... but allowing it to 'grow' with a fighter is.

You will still have Strike Last... slow thing... but you may enjoy using it a little more.

But isn't Strike Last very, very sucky? In Mordheim it usually meant death!

Hehhehe... the jury is out on how 'sucky' it is.

First, in we have 'functioning' armor. Unlike Mordheim, Armor does not reduce the chances of wounding (which are 100% negated by a critical.) In , Armor is always there for you (Armor Save)... unless you get hit by a Critical, in which case the Armor maybe reduced. In Mordheim, going last is VERY dangerous because the game mechanics promotes "the 1st person to hit wins" type of combat. In is all about effects. So the Power Fist maybe affected by Strike Last, but if you are equipped correctly, you have a fair chance to deliver your blow.

Also, is about strategy... !!! If you send your Officer with Power Fist in front to Assault, he will have a tough time. BUT, is you send him after some other minions, he is THE fighter that is equipped to finish the job!

As it stands, the Power Fist is not a weapon you want to use early in your campaign. The risks of going last are not worth the over-kill. A Chainssword would be better. LATER in the Campaign is a different Story... fighting against better armored enemies with higher Toughness and Skills.

I liked the Power Fist... but still like my Catachan Fang better! BUYA!!!

Mordheimer Doesn't a warrior armed with a powerfist still get his extra attacks with his other weapon eg. a CF as a powerfist is used as a secondary weapon? That was how I read it anyway.

Intrepid Adventurer I agree in mordheim I only took 2 handed weapons for fluff but in you still have a chance of striking first on the charge and your captain has I4.

As it is writen right now, the Power Fists goes in his 2nd hand... but that conflicts the the most common setup... Power Fist and Pistol (also compulsory on 2nd hand!) This fix address all that in an elegant (simple... ) way.

So does anyone even use generic Cadians, or are the special squads that much better?

Good question...

And here is another... how can this be 'fixed'?

There's a good reason no one plays generic: having special rules is way more fun! It also makes the warband that much more unique.

I would propose renaming the Cadians to generic Guard (just: Imperial Guard regiment). The Cadians should have their own special rules. They are shock troopers, so I would think mobile firepower and tactical flexibility are their specialities. Rapid fire bonus or something?

Considering I have been playing with paint schemes for my Guard a lot and finally having settled on Cadian one, I will be playing generic Guard (since my models don't fit the other rules). While I play, I'll keep this topic in mind and see if I can come up with some cool rules for Cadian specifics.

Well, if we learned something with the Chaos Cultists IS that the 'generic' benchmark does NOT have to be boring. As a matter of FACT, the Chaos Undivided is a fun/viable option... rather desirable. I would like for the Cadians to be just that.

However, by your own admission (or at least implication), this is not the case right now. Right?

Not to my liking. Some things are obvious, some others are not.

For example, the Cadians do NOT have anything at all... even the right for an exclusive Hired Gun. This WILL change. A forum member suggested a Kasrkin Veteran Sergeant (which needs to be finalized), as after all, you still have to pay for it so no harm in including it. For a cost of ZERO they get a max size of 20 (which in the right hands can be VERY powerful)... but I would like something else. Maybe something... disposable. Maybe each Officer comes with a free Hotshot Powerpack or Dum-Dum Bullets (player's choice)... and/or maybe they should get +1 to Ld Tests when testing Fear against Chaos.

The idea has been submitted for discussion... but YOUR feedback is valuable too!

Of course. Let you know as soon as we come up with something!