Bloodwing - Space Wolves or Dark Angels?

Quick question: I want to build a 'Bloodwing' Blood Angels 1st Company army (so all terminators and one possibly two dreadnoughts - though undecided on the Land Raiders - I like footsloggers).

I can't do this with the current codex. So I need to use either Space Wolves or Dark Angels (I don't want to go Grey Knights as this will be my major opponent). I also want to make the army as flexible to add with my main blood angels army (which is itself still unfinished!).

Currently I have...
Lugft Huron (he'll look good in red anyway)
An old Lysander model that desperately needs a repaint and made into an angel
The Blood Angel Space Hulk models
A squad of thunder hammer termies in need of a repaint (currently souldrinkers from my old army)
A couple of spare termies left over from truescaling
A venerable dreadnought

and... A box each of reguler termies, space wolves and grey knights (I wanted all the cool bits)

So my questions are...
Which codex should I use to best represent the Blood Angels?
and what should the army list for 1500 points - 2000 points look like?

Cheers Laney

Quote :

The Blood Angel Space Hulk models

*Jealous*

That's funny. I'm working on a Chaos-Loganwing army. Using Chaos Termies with the SW codex.

With Blood Angels I would use the SW codex too.

Logan's axe could be represented as any big and awesome weapon, being axe, sword or rubber chicken.

The Wolf Guard with Counter-charge seems to fit the angels pms rage. They are also very flexible with numbers between 3-10 and the enormous amount of options for wargear.

I find the only downside with the SW is that they can only deepstrike with Pods(basicly they are scared of the modern science of teleporting). So I'm planning to have two squads footslogging it and three squads Droppodding in.

The DA codex feels so restrictive as you can only buy termies in squads of 5 man. It makes for an inflexible armyselection.

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with

PM Dozer... he is an EXPERT when it comes to Dark Angels and stuff like this!

Here's the list I went for in the end... I've added a few of the models I intend to use...

Blood Angels 1st Company (using the Space Wolves Codex)

HQ
Blood Angels 1st Company Captain (Grimnar) 275 Based on the Lysander model (I just couldn't break up the Huron Model!)

TROOPS
Honour Guard (Terminator Wolf Guard 1) 250
Storm Bolter, Frost Blade (2)
Storm Bolter, Power Fist (1)
Storm Bolter, Frost Blade, Cyclone Launcher (1)
Storm Bolter, Chainfist (1)

1st Company Terminator CC Squad (Terminator Wolf Guard 2) 430
Arjac Rockfist (1) SPACE HULK SERGEANT
Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield (3) Regular TH/SS Marines
Heavy Flamer, Power Fist (1) SPACE HULK H.FLAMER

1st Company Terminator Squad (Terminator Wolf Guard 3) 240
Storm Bolter, Power Weapon (1) SPACE HULK SERGEANT
Assault Cannon, Power Fist (1) SPACE HULK ASS.CAN
Storm Bolter, Chainfist (1) SPACE HULK CHAINFIST
Storm Bolter, Power Fist (2) SPACE HULK POWER FIST (2)

1st Company Terminator Squad (Terminator Wolf Guard 4) 240
Storm Bolter, Power Weapon (1)
Assault Cannon, Power Fist (1) Regular Space Marine Model
Storm Bolter, Chainfist (1)
Storm Bolter, Power Fist (2) SPACE HULK POWER FIST (2)

ELITES
Death Company Terminator (Lone Wolf) 65 SPACE HULK LIGHTNING CLAWS
Wolf Claws ×2 (1)

Army Total: 1500

1750 points: An extra terminator squad with the same profile as Terminator Squad 3 and 4. 10 spare points spent on weapons upgrades (probably melta bombs, combi-meltas or maybe a fenrisian wolf or two for the lone wolf – would look cool and quickly up the model count a touch).

2000 points: Add a Land Raider Crusader.

What do you think?
Ta Laney

I was going to say the dark angels codex is kinda out dated.

I'd dump Arjac. IMHO he's horribly overpriced for what he does. And squad 3 and 4 has a lot of powerfists that could be replaced with std. PW's. Two PF's per squad should be enough two wreck most of the vehicles you'll meet. I know you might want to use as many of the Space Hulk models as possible but it just seems over the top.

I'd spend the points on a Rune Priest(since you have a cool model for it from the Space Hulk) and two Droppods for some of the Squads as they can't Deep Strike without them.

My 51 cents

Some great points mudboy - I'll have another look at my list and see what I can work out. I was trying to keep as close to a fluffy blood angels list as I could manage (hence all the power fists!) - but I could maybe fit in a few other weapons (optimise the list a little). I'd like to see if I can fit in one or two more lone wolves (they are my death company).

Cheers Laney

So, I've dropped Arjac and added a runepriest/librarian, plus a second lone wolf (I've left out the drop pods because of a)cost and b) I want to use all the space hulk models. On the modelling front I've stripped and converted a lysander model to be my 1st company captain (Karlaen in the current codex) and a squad sergeant (or a member of the honour guard)...

1st Company Captain Karlaen



Terminator Sergeant



Cheers Laney

Very cool models!

I spoke with Dozer and he told me... Dark Angels Codex is OLD, but have some GREAT tricks. If you plan to use Speeders, it is THE way to go! All Speeders ALWAYS count as Scoring Units, so they are the only FAST ATTACK VEHICLES that can actually take objectives.

I'm telling you, Laney... PM the man! He can tell you BILLIONS of things. He is considered a Guru by The Bolter and Chainsword community... that should tell you something!

I'll definitely, PM Dozer when I get the chance and see if I can learn some tricks. I'm be sticking with the 'wolfwing' as this is literally a Terminator only army (I'd consider a land raider crusader or two and some dreadnoughts - but everything else is outside the 1st company model - even vanguards and sternguards at the minute - because I can't build a legal army with them). So no speeders. While I have an army list - this is more of a painting project to go with my main blood angels force than an army in its own right.

Talking about deathwing has split my focus again - I want to build a 'fallen' terminator - now that would be cool!

Cheers Laney

Hay Dude gerat looking Minis!!!!!!!

Darryl

Sorry it took me so long to get to this. Mord told me about this post about a week ago, and I just now got around to checking it out. The SW codex DOES reflect the Blood Angels mindset a lot more with Counter attack, but do not discount the DW either, as they can be just as tought to beat.

Although I understand your premise on using the Space Hulk models (they ARE gorgeous models), but doing so SEVERELY hampers the weapon options and abilities that the SW codex gives you.

Wolf Guard TDA: Your honor guard is a solid unit for sure, but something you might have overlooked (since this IS an honor guard unit for Grimnar) is that you want Grimnar in close combat with ANYTHING as much as possible. As such the squad should also be tooled out to deal with CC as well. There should be at least one TH/SS combo in this squad. The Frost Blades are nice, but you get more bang for LESS buck with the Wolf Claw, as you can choose to re-roll to-hit OR re-roll to-wound. Also do not forget that since you are in TDA, you are relentless. Which means even if you moved, you always count as stationary for the purposes of firing heavy or rapid fire weapons, as well as you have the ability to assault after. That means you can use Combi-weapons to a great degree, ESPECIALLY since it is only a 5 point upgrade to get them. Also don't forget that if you pop a transport to shooting with a squad, that same squad CAN assualt whatever infrantry unit that was inside. Powerfists are also good, but by switching out frost weapons for wolf claws you get 5 points per weapon back, which will allow you to upgrade those powerfists to thunder hammers, which are INFININTLEY better since they can stun vehicles and units if they are not killed outright. Also duality is key, which means having multiples of the same unit cuts back from your opponent selecting the more "powerful" unit as a target, and forces him to make decisions about which to shoot since they all offer the same threat to him. Assault cannons should be dropped in favor of CMLs. Assault cannons don't reliably give you the same anti-tank ability as a CML does, and the CML can instant death most targets (S8) and give you MUCH better anti-horde than the assault cannon (two S4 blast templates rather than 4 shots). This also allows you to place a combi-melta in the CMLs hand for that extra anti-tank punch (remember you can fire both the CML and another ranged weapon). A rune priest is a great addition to the army, as he gives you psy defense, defensive powers, and great offensive ones as well. Really since you are slogging around on foot you should focus on supporting and shooting powers. My ideal powers would be JotWW and Living Lightning. JotWW allows you to tag multiple units, dealing a great amount of damage across your opponents army, and Living Lightning can also do some pretty good anti-tank damage (S7 Assault D6). Really your rune priest should not be in hand-to-hand unless absolutely necessary, since he only has a 5+ inv and hes an IC meaning he can be picked out fairly easily. He should be back with a homefield squad protecting your backfield objectives. Lone wolfs....IMHO....are crap. As an individual unit, they will get shot down in a heartbeat, and would grant a free kill point to your opponent with ease. Even rapid fire bolters with one plasma gun will drop them in a heart beat just by sheer wounds caused.

SO....with that....my tweaks:

Grimnar - 275

Rune Prist w/ TDA - 140
Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs, Saga of the Beastslayer, JotWW, Living Lightning

#1 (Honor Guard for Grimnar) -290
WG - Combi-Melta, Wolf Claw
WG - Combi-Melta, Frost Weapon
WG - Combi-Melta, Chain Fist
WG - Combi-Melta, Thunder Hammer
WG - Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer, CML

#2 -265
WG - Combi-Melta, Wolf Claw
WG - Combi-Melta, Frost Weapon
WG - Combi-Melta, Chain Fist
WG - Combi-Melta, Thunder Hammer
WG - Combi-Melta, Power Weapon, CML

#3 -265
WG - Combi-Melta, Wolf Claw
WG - Combi-Melta, Frost Weapon
WG - Combi-Melta, Chain Fist
WG - Combi-Melta, Thunder Hammer
WG - Combi-Melta, Power Weapon, CML

#4 -265
WG - Combi-Melta, Wolf Claw
WG - Combi-Melta, Frost Weapon
WG - Combi-Melta, Chain Fist
WG - Combi-Melta, Thunder Hammer
WG - Combi-Melta, Power Weapon, CML



So thats lots of anti-tank shooting (You are bound to blow SOMETHING up with that much melta) with some good CC power to back it up.

Thanks DoZer,

Sorry for not PMing you early about this - great advice.

I agree with the CML being superior to the Assault Cannons - I dpn't see the blood angels without assault cannons though. My major opponent will be likely to field Grey Knights one week and Tyranids the next (so polar opposites!) so the flexibilty is key - I'll probably take you up on this (bits sites here we come).

Any value in combi-plasmas mixed into the army? The Combi-meltas are ace (but that's a lot of conversions for what I hope is a quick army, plus I hope they will be usuable in my main blood angels army - the one I've never finished!).

Another question - why so few storm shields - I know they are pricey but strike me as perfect for the honour guard at least?

The lone wolves are there to represent the Death Company - the only thing is that don't give up a kill point when they are killed - they give up a kill point if they survive - so I thought I tool them up to get into the fray nice and early and distract from the others advance (I have a poor tactical mind)

It's a great list (I think Mudboy will be interested in it too) - I'll have to see if I can justify it in my head (for fluff reasons!)

Cheers Laney - lots to think about

I'd argue that you actually lose a lot of firepower by taking all those combimeltas. With stormbolters you always get two shots at any range. With combiweapons you get two shots within 12" and only one beyond that. With a foot slogging army you need all the long range firepower you can muster and even more so with the low model count. And five melta shots in every squad but one seems a bit much.
However DoZer is an old man and old men are often right

Btw. It's easy to convert some combimeltas from CSM Termie combiflamers. You just have to remove a few spikes and find a donor melta. I'll do a tutorial next time I make one.

Cheers all

Combi-Plasmas are pretty good. It will definitely help when facing a GK elite army (AP2 for the win!) and it has the high strength and shots needed to drop nid warriors and even MCs. You need not worry to much about gets hot rolls because you are walking around in TDA. Combi-flamers are also something to think about if you are facing nids, as multiple flame templates make them cry. Just ask Mord about my dreadnought podding in next to his termagaunt brood.

Storm Shields: Don't really know what to tell you with this. Sure they are 15 points a pop, but they are only truly effective in hand-to-hand, and only when you are carrying a crap ton of them. I can honestly say that I only put them on my dedicated Close Combat squad with my DW. You however are in even more of a quandry, because you have to decided whether or not you want those power weapon attacks (replacing the storm bolter with the SS) or the shots (replacing the power weapon with the SS). All I can really say is play around with it, and see what fits your playing style.

The biggest thing about this is you are only looking at a 22 model count at 1500 points. Which means this army should stride forward and hold out the middle. I would even go so far as to say castle up in the middle and just dakka whatever come close with focused firepower. You should be very hesitent to push forward into close combat, and only do so when you are left without any other option (for example that you would end up taking a charge from a MC or something just as nasty).

The other thing to think about is dropping the Rune Priest, taking off all the combi weapons, and that gets you enough points to bring in another squad of WG with all the weapon options I mentioned before and one combi-weapon.

Mudboy: You only loose one shot beyond 12" per WG, and only then its one shot against an infantry type unit. Long range fire power is mostly anti-tank, so if you are firing at an anti-tank weapon at a vehicle you are wasting those shots anyways. Those close range meltas are great for popping tanks up close, thereby allowing the WG squads to crunch your opponent in hand-to-hand. Past turn 1, he shouldn't be shooting beyond that range anyways, especially if you are going to midfield denial your opponent. 5 shots of melta might be a bit much, but you don't have to blast them all off on one round of shooting. Fire off three meltas, and hold two of them in reserve for further targets of opportunity on later turns. With 5th edition being the pinnacle of Mech armies, meltas across the entire army is almost a must, ESPECIALLY with such a low model count and lack of anti-tank.

Revised Army:

Grimnar - 275

#1 - 245
WG - Combi-weapon, Wolf Claw
WG - Storm Bolter, Frost Weapon
WG - Storm Bolter, Chain Fist
WG - Storm Bolter, Thunder Hammer
WG - Storm Bolter, Power Weapon, CML

#2 - 245
WG - Combi-weapon, Frost Weapon
WG - Storm Bolter, Wolf Claw
WG - Storm Bolter, Chain Fist
WG - Storm Bolter, Thunder Hammer
WG - Storm Bolter, Power Weapon, CML

#3 - 245
WG - Combi-weapon, Chain Fist
WG - Storm Bolter, Frost Weapon
WG - Storm Bolter, Wolf Claw
WG - Storm Bolter, Thunder Hammer
WG - Storm Bolter, Power Weapon, CML

#4 - 245
WG - Combi-weapon, Thunder Hammer
WG - Storm Bolter, Frost Weapon
WG - Storm Bolter, Chain Fist
WG - Storm Bolter, Wolf Claw
WG - Storm Bolter, Power Weapon, CML

#5 - 245
WG - Combi-weapon, Power Weapon, CML
WG - Storm Bolter, Frost Weapon
WG - Storm Bolter, Chain Fist
WG - Storm Bolter, Thunder Hammer
WG - Storm Bolter, Wolf Claw

1500 points even, giving you total model count of 26, with 10 CML shots, and whatever combination of combi-weapons you choose to place on them. Each combi-weapon is on a different model for each squad, since some tournaments have comp scores with rules that dictate loss of points in the tourney for duplicate squads (sneaky right??). Granted there isn't any storm shields......but that shouldn't be to much of an issue.

This is a great discussions of the minds. Makes me feel DUMB... how can you guys think of those lists is beyond me. Hell, at least I accept my roll as everyone's favorite 40k-punching bag!

mudboy wrote:

However DoZer is an old man and old men are often right

YOU BEEN CALLED OLD!!!! HAHAHAH!!! THIS SHOULD BE MY NEW SIGNATURE!!!!

Mordheimer wrote:

mudboy wrote:

However DoZer is an old man and old men are often right

YOU BEEN CALLED OLD!!!! HAHAHAH!!! THIS SHOULD BE MY NEW SIGNATURE!!!!

Highly ironic considering I'm only 25......

Ha ha crap. I didn't notice that. I'm 26

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread, but I was wondering if you (laney) had done any more work on this army? Would love to see it painted up, esp. the Lugft Huron model you mentioned in the first post. Also, as I'm currently playing with the idea of doing a logan wing army, I was wondering how other people armed their Lone Wolves - I heard of one guy who used three lone wolves, each armed with a chainfist and a storm shield, and deployed as dreadnaught killers. Is this worth the conversion effort?

Sparrow2z: There is NO such thing as Thread Necromancy here... it is NOT your fault you just arrive to the party! You find something you are interested... POST away!

Laney: So... updates??

It's interesting that this thread has resurfaced now... I used the previous termies that I bought for the bloodwing in the half finshed nurgle army currently residing in my shed.

Huron from Christmas 2010 is built but still unpainted and I've been toying with the idea of doing a 'proper' deathwing using forgeworld pads, termies, bitz, a contemptor and anything else I can lay my hands on (with the required landraider too). Basically, spending more money I don't have.

And now we have the prisoner exchange - so I must convert a super cool (probably IG or chaos marine - truescale for the win!) for the exchange.

Basically, I need to spend less money and paint some stuff instead!

Cheers Laney

The "Half-Finished" Nurgle army you keep in your shed?? Mate, do me a favour - put some pics up of that. Would love to see your take on that, esp. after seeing your Chaos BB squad.

And, you know, if that Huron is just too much of a bother, feel free to send it my way...

Here's the link

http://www.deathsquadsgame.com/t2000p30-40k-armies-on-parade-hopefully-army-legion-of-rust-nurgle

The idea was to complete the army in a speed painting style (simple techniques - not much finesse!)

I have done more than this - but mostly just basecoated stuff.

Laney:D