11th Harakoni Light Recon: "Mad Sparrows" - thoughts & tactics

First off: we've got this forum and the Tactics & Strategy. Where do armylist questions really belong? I feel the two forums overlap.

With a couple of games under my belt I feel it's time to talk about my experiences with the game. As a starter, here is the (Cadian) list I started out with:

[Question: are combat knives free or not?]

Captain
Powerfist, slugger
Flak armor, helmet

Lieutenant
Sword, slugger
Flak armor, helmet

Lieutenant
Sword, slugger
Flak armor, helmet

Sergeant
Autogun
Combat knife

Sergeant
Autogun
Combat knife

Medic
Autopistol
Combat knife

HWS
Flamer

2 Recruits
Autogun
Combat Knife

2 Recruits
Autogun
Combat knife

Leaving me with a couple of credits to spare. If I missed something big here, let me know!

My first general observation is that close combat is difficult to achieve. The first reason for this is that movement is fairly limited in DS. Not only do most models move rather slow (at a Mordheim pace of 4", instead of 40k 6"), but since playing with lots of terrain is fun there's loads of difficult terrain. Then I should hustle, right? Well, not so much: with a general initiative of 3, my guys kept falling on their faces. I soon learned to accept my slower movement pace. Heck, charging was out of the question a lot of times: I could have accepted half movement speeds, but the I-test for charging through terrain made me hug cover and shoot instead.

So if you're equipped for close combat, you have to accept a slow movement speed in order to survive, either through hiding or staying out of sight. And even then most shooters are in cover, giving them an extra edge when assaulted. Finally, even though I love the "covering fire!" declare-a-charge rule, it does make assault extra risky.

It also makes the Urban Fighters mega-awesome. Sure, Catachans have the same advantage in jungle, but let's face it: a cool skirmish table has buildings with several levels. The reroll for hustle tests in urban terrain is simply awesome, considering the urban fighters be able to move much faster than their opponents. Not to mention the +1 cover save on virtually the entire table!

Do we, as in my group, need more jungle terrain? I suppose, but I'm still not convinced limiting cover saves to a certain type of terrain is the way to go.

Maybe you guys did this on purpose and DS is supposed to be shooty. Or I'm playing it wrong. I'd love to hear feedback!

Looking back on my list I've noticed a critical error: my LTs have CC weapons, my sarges rifles. Considering the latter have WS4, but not BS4, it should be the other way around! In fact, the biggest loser in my list *has* to be my Captain: after three games this guy has done literally nothing but run up to the front and die. His biggest weaponfeat was going unarmed karate on his guards (in our rescue mission), whom in turn brutally convinced him not to ever do that again.

So I'm heavily considering going mega-shooty. Maybe a longlas on the CO, bolters on the Lieutenants... and maybe CC sarges as backup. I was considering doing CC recruits as backup - but isn't there a rule that says recruits can't fight with two weapons?

So, thoughts?

Arachas wrote:

Question: are combat knives free or not?

If it is on the UNIT's description (Equipment) then it is. If it is NOT on there, then it is not. For example, look at the IG Infantrymen... it says "Combat Knife". Now check the Ork Gretchin, it says "None". The Infantrymen start with a free Combat Knife, the Gretchin does not. Notice (the ironic twist) that a Combat Knife is almost as expensive as a Gretchin, and probably as powerful!

I think that your starting list is pure genius! You start with 11 guys, but your Officers are DECKED OUT! They have Save 4+ and there is even a Power Fist. I would have avoided the Power Fist in exchange for more Infantrymen... but fluff comes FIRST! BRAVO!

Let me take some of your incredible observations one at a time. Your comments in orange.

My first general observation is that close combat is difficult to achieve. The first reason for this is that movement is fairly limited in DS. Not only do most models move rather slow (at a Mordheim pace of 4", instead of 40k 6"), ....
Well, that depends on the Squad. Remember that you are playing the 'benchmark' Squad. You are NOT average (there are many advantages to playing Cadians) but if you play Eldar, you think those guys teleport! I remember a game vs jd3 in which he made my Orks run all over the board trying to chase him... while he picked me appart. If you ask the Orks, the REAL reason is that they got tired of fast food...

In game terms, the skirmish board is smaller than 40k... so there are lots of elements that M4 is better than M6 (like in 40k). The design makes the 1st Turn (on the average Scenario) to be one of movement and strategy. Then Turns 2-3 tends to be shooting, 4-5 a mix of both and 6+ Close Combat. It gives a fair chance for shooty Squads to do their thing and move farther away (and thus avoid Close Combat) and for brawling Squads to get close to the real action! (WAAAGH!)

There are strategies to upset this 'observational' trend... for example, if you Walk you tend to extend shooting, if you Hide you negate being shot at, if you Run and stop blocking LoS you get into Close Combat faster, etc. If you play Eldar vs Eldar, you could be in each other throats by Turn 4... and depending on the Scenario could be in Turn 2!


... but since playing with lots of terrain is fun there's loads of difficult terrainThen I should hustle, right?
The terrain type is defined... UNLIKE 40k, in which moving through a building is considered Difficult Terrain, moving through some ruined building in is NOT Dangerous Ground, unless you and your opponent have agreed to it. In our typical table (HUGELY packed), there is no Dangerous Ground unless we say "this patch of vegetation are tangled poisonous thorny weeds..." or something like that. If you and your opponent decide to have LOTS of Dangerous Ground, then use the corridors that are open to you (i.e. roads, grass, non-descriptive open space).



Well, not so much: with a general initiative of 3, my guys kept falling on their faces. I soon learned to accept my slower movement pace. Heck, charging was out of the question a lot of times: I could have accepted half movement speeds, but the I-test for charging through terrain made me hug cover and shoot instead.
Again, this depends on what is considered Dangerous Ground. Remember... 40k parameters and definitions do NOT apply to Death Squads. Different game, different scale. In 40k, you do NOT need a big opening (or a door for that matter!) to have your fighters cross a building... yes, it is specifically stated on the 40k rulebook that fighters would use grenades or shoot their weapons to make doors. In this is NOT the case... you need to find an opening. This means that in 40k, you need to devise a simple way to simulate this and slow units. Thus the rules for Difficult Terrain are somewhat strict. In , having the same rules would mean that you either never go into a building OR the game is slow down to a crawl. Re-read the rules and enjoy. BTW... the rules are MORE defined in v0.6.0 as suggested by another player.


So if you're equipped for close combat, you have to accept a slow movement speed in order to survive, either through hiding or staying out of sight. And even then most shooters are in cover, giving them an extra edge when assaulted. Finally, even though I love the "covering fire!" declare-a-charge rule, it does make assault extra risky.
Your experience may change based on the explanation above. Yes, Assault is more risky (still) but it is VERY deadly!


It also makes the Urban Fighters mega-awesome. Sure, Catachans have the same advantage in jungle, but let's face it: a cool skirmish table has buildings with several levels.
We use multilevel jungles too! The sky is the limit... break from the mental barriers imposed by 40k... you will like it.



The reroll for hustle tests in urban terrain is simply awesome, considering the urban fighters be able to move much faster than their opponents. Not to mention the +1 cover save on virtually the entire table!
Well... not every table. It is MY fault that v0.5.1b does not have Area Terrain explained (I wrote it and forgot to add it to the manual... ) it is already on v0.6.0. Someone already made your observation during the testing of Area Terrain (one of the reasons why this was created!)



Do we, as in my group, need more jungle terrain? I suppose, but I'm still not convinced limiting cover saves to a certain type of terrain is the way to go.
We can ALL use more natural terrain! Seriously, we have Area Terrain... it is an area that is hard to represent physically, like a dense part of the jungle. It is (almost) impossible to have every tree and every bush and every vine created, so you can create a section in which a couple of trees are the indication of the area. While inside this area, you gain the befefit of it... but so it is your opponent. This is NOT limited to vegetation; you could have an area that is "hazzardous rubble" in which modeling each piece of rubble would be difficult and/or make practical placement of models difficult. It works WONDERDDS for mine fields... you put a patch of are with a sign that say "If you can read this, you are about to be blown to pieces!" and consider it Dangerous Ground, regardless where specificallt your model is on the mine field.

I'm NOT dismissing what you are saying. Far the contrary, I'm SUPER happy you said it. It reinforces what we though back then and makes our design improvements a little more valid.


Maybe you guys did this on purpose and DS is supposed to be shooty.
is intended to be a fairly balanced system... in which Squads being used, terrain placed on the table and player tactics determine what type of game the particular session would be. For example, if you place a table with 2 Bunkers separated by 20" of open ground and you are playing Mordians, it will be a LONG shooting game. If you place some minor Cover between them (even if it is 6+ Cover Save) and both play Catachans, you will see a mix of shooting and Close Combat (Officers move and Hide, while Recruits stay and shoot). If you play Eldar (and they are Stricking Scorpions (Close Combat) or Kroot, you may see an ultra fast game that ends in a Close Combat massacre.

The rules will NOT determine the tyupe of game; players will! This is a leasson I learned from 40k. In 4th Edition it was more about fast vehicles and getting in Close Combat with urgency. Just by nerfing Glancing Hits and removing being able to jump from Assault to Assault after a Massacre (preferred Genestealer Tactic!) the game moved more to being shooty and tank-transport oriented. While this is fun and all, I rather see players exploring a particular situation, terrain and Scenario and TRY to take the battle to their advantage... like a real situation. It is !


Or I'm playing it wrong. I'd love to hear feedback!
I would say that you maybe being 'too severe' on what is Difficult Ground. Part of it (well, most of it!) is MY fault for forgetting to add those sections on the current release and part of it is the nature of 40k sneaking to Death Squads. There is a reason why calls it Difficult Ground and not Difficult Terrain... to make sure players understand they are different rules (although similar intends.)



Looking back on my list I've noticed a critical error: my LTs have CC weapons, my sarges rifles. Considering the latter have WS4, but not BS4, it should be the other way around! In fact, the biggest loser in my list *has* to be my Captain: after three games this guy has done literally nothing but run up to the front and die. His biggest weapon feat was going unarmed karate on his guards (in our rescue mission), whom in turn brutally convinced him not to ever do that again.
LOL! To me (and I must be one of the WORST strategists in the history of planet Earth!), starting with a Power Fist is like going to the supermarket to buy your groceries while you are VERY hungry; you tend to buy LOTS of stuff you can't use! Besides that the Power Fist is already revised on v0.6.0, this is a weapon best used on a 'matured' Squad. It packs a HUGE punch... literally... but on a rookie Squad is a money pit AND you lack the support of others to keep the Captain safe until he gets into SMASHING.

Live (or die) and learn. The same thing happened to me with my Catachan Captain and a Bolter. I learned my lesson after I swallow half of my own teeth in Close Combat vs Dozer's Chaos Space Marine.


So I'm heavily considering going mega-shooty. Maybe a longlas on the CO, bolters on the Lieutenants... and maybe CC sarges as backup.
You CAN do that... perfectly fine. One of the advantages of Cadians... flexibility! You make sure that you have couple tricks to counter Close Combat specialist Squads (like Catachans, Orks & Kroot). Your strategy is sound... give it a whirl and send your opponents in a WFT!?! mode. Heheheh


I was considering doing CC recruits as backup - but isn't there a rule that says recruits can't fight with two weapons?
This has been revised. In v0.5.1b is kindda of a mess... and many counter intuitive points were raised. Dozer (who championed the revisions) argued that an Infantryman has two hands (usually!) and he should be able to fight (in Close Comabt) with two wepons. The intend was to give an edge to Officers... so we settled in a much practical, realistic AND simpler rule. Basically everyone can fight with two CC weapons; their Attack Attribute on their primary hand, and 1 'extra' attack on their 2nd hand. The difference (edge) for the Officers is that they can carry two firearms AND two CC weapons (they can switch weapons from Turn to Turn without penalty or rolls), while Recruits can carry EITHER one firearm and one CC weapon OR 2 CC weapons.

This means that your Officer could have a Lasgun and a Flamer Pistol, along with a Power Sword and a Club... while your Recruit could have either an Autogun and a Sword OR a Sword and a Combat Knife. Besides that, the rules are the same... it is much more !



So, thoughts?
Hey... I just wrote a bunch of tuff! Hope this helps!

That's an interesting observation you made about dangerous ground. Indeed, I had not given it second thought: I interpreted it just like I do when playing 40k. I thought it was just your name for the same phenomenon. You're saying we should only treat the dangerous ground as dangerous ground?

That will change things. Tomorrow we'll be playing another game (featuring Eldar!) and we'll be less strict on defining difficult terrain. Curious to see how much it matters!

Nevertheless I'm highly contemplating restarting my squad. I want to start out with something things, mainly weapons. I think I'll probably restart a couple of times as I get used to the game. Or would you recommend against this?

I get your comments about the M stat. Indeed, it's refresing to play a game that is designed for a 4' by 4' table. That's all I have and my 40k games are usually quite cramped. During our last games, our scenery-donating friend even complained we weren't using the entire table.

I'll post further observations after the next game!

Not many things in are in place for no reason... In order to help you on your net game, let me post the section of Types of Terrain that is on TLRB v0.6.0... hopefully it will help. Remember... Open TERRAIN in 40k is ANYTHING that is flat as a pancake (usually bare table); Open GROUND in is the same, plus minor rubble or inside clear buildings (unlike 40k). If you 'relax' from the strict 40k guidelines (they are compensating for other areas and details that we can address in a skirmish), the game will move faster and more accurately.

HAVE FUN!

Types of Terrain The Universe in the 41st Millennium is a dark and dangerous place. From frozen tundras, to abandoned Space Hulks, to luscious jungles, to ruined cities, all are part of the never ending struggle of humanity and the alien life forms they have encountered. Battlefields have many things that can be classified as a different kind of terrain feature. In a skirmish situation, hiding behind a barrel may save the day! Please discuss with your gaming partner before you start the game what will be Dangerous, and Impassable Ground. Doing so will help reduce issues during the game. Below the types of terrain features: Open Ground: The tabletop surface, floors of buildings, connecting overhangs, ladders, slopes, bushes, angled roofs, ramps and ropes are all considered to be Open Ground and will not affect movement even if the fighter is Charging. It can also go through doors and hatches without slowing down. It is important to note that players may decide that a seemingly Open Ground will be considered a Dangerous Ground. For example, players may decide that a specific ramp is mined, or a particular bush path contains poisonous plants. Dangerous Ground: This is any dangerous terrain, such as narrow crawl holes through piles of rubble. Fighters may move at half speeds over Dangerous Ground, so if the fighter moves 4" over Open Ground it can only move 2" over very Dangerous Ground. A fighter may Walk, Run or even Charge as normal through Dangerous Ground by passing the appropriate Hustle Test, as detailed below. The inside of buildings and ruins are always considered Dangerous Ground for Flyers. Impassable Ground: There is terrain that is simply impossible to move over or through, such as deep or corrosive pools, enveloping layers of soft hive dust, and, of course, solid walls, collapsed tunnels, and the like. In rare occasions a fighter may be forced into Impassible Ground (i.e. pushed from a rooftop down to a toxic moat which was declared i]Impassible Ground[/i] before the game started). In such cases, the fighter must remain in place for the rest of the game; the fighter may shoot, but may not move at all. Walls & Barriers: Walls, hedges, barricades, barrels and other low obstacles form barriers that can grant a Cover Save. Your fighter can either go around them or Jump over. Obstacles less than 1” high can be leap over without any roll and would not affect movement in any way. [... ...] Hustle Movement Soldiers of the 41st Millennium are trained to move over dangerous terrain to reach tactical advantages. Any fighters moving over Dangerous Ground may attempt to move at their normal rate, despite the ground they are to cover, risking severe injury or even death! This is known as a Hustle move. A fighter must declare that they intend to Walk normally (at full Movement rate) through Dangerous Ground before he starts to move. The fighter then must roll a D6 to make an Initiative Test. If the roll is equal or below the fighter’s Initiative, he may Walk as normal. If the test is failed, the fighter would take one Wound on a 5+ (Saves allowed as normal) and may only move at half rate, regardless if the fighter was injured by the Hustle move. A fighter must declare that they intend to Run normally (at full Movement rate) through Dangerous Ground before he starts to move. The fighter then must roll a D6 to make an Initiative Test at -1 penalty. If the roll is equal or below the fighter’s Initiative, he may Run as normal. If the test is failed, the fighter would take one Wound on a 4+ (ignoring Armor Saves) and may only move at half rate, regardless if the fighter was injured by the Hustle move. The fighter that has Declared a Charge may attempt to engage an enemy, even if he must pass through Dangerous Ground. The fighter then must roll a D6 to make an Initiative Test at -1 penalty. If the roll is equal or below the fighter’s Initiative, he may Run as normal. If the test is failed, the fighter would take one Wound on a 4+ (ignoring Armor Saves) and the move is considered a Failed Charge; place the model at full Charge distance -1 inch or within 1 inch of the intended target, whatever is less. The damage take from Dangerous Ground is not as intense as any damage taken in combat. To represent this, the fighter gets a -1 to the Injury Roll (minimum of 1).

Keep us posted on your squads.

Arachas, did the new information helped?

On my table there is a ton of open ground (alas), so the matter wasn't as pressing this game. We didn't designate the buildings as dangerous terrain, so especially the Eldar moved very fast. As you've seen, however, the game was over before we could really test the new setup.

I've opted not to start a new squad yet (bit of a leftover Mordheim habit - restart when things go bad), but endure and save up cash for my shooty plans. I did put a new captain model together, complete with bolter and and carapace armor. Looking forward to putting him into action: I'll need more cash first, though!

By the power invested in me by OCD... split thread! See the new topic here!

You touch my thread again... I will FONG you!

Muahahahah!

So in the fifth game I got mauled... again. I was prepared to drop the squad after losing three models and gaining some more serious wounds.

I decided against it in the end, thinking I'd get XP for being the underdog anyway. The good news was that I'd gained a fair amount of credits after the last game. I bought a new medic (let's hope this one knows how to stay alive!), a new flamerguy (too good to pass up) and a new recruit. But then I realized I'd lost a sergeant earlier: so I replaced him instead. With 1 credit to spare! Too bad he's walking around naked with only a spare stubber and a kitchen knife... I'll have to keep him back in the next game.

I switched around some weapons, considering I felt I wasn't making enough use of my LT's BS. So now the LT's each have a sword and an autogun (and their obligatory Swiss army knives, of course), with the chainsword going to my boss: after all, it'd be cool if he actually killed something next game!

Buying all these new troopers and gear almost brought me back to my old level. That sounds good, but the others all improved, haha. I am very anxious about tomorrow's game against Sturmm. I was laid back when I started playing him... but now it's personal!

The current list:

Captain Aetos
Chainsword, autopistol, combat knife
Flak armour and helmet
Notes: 2 attacks, but blinded in one eye. Wasn't going to waste a rifle on this guy.

Lieutenant Kuijt
(has a striking similarity to our Dutch Striker, hence the name ).
Autogun (obviously becoming a shotgun at first notice), combat knife, sword
Flak armour and helmet
Notes: this was the model with the bionic arm, but I found that more fitting for another officer (and it didn't have a rifle).

Lieutenant
Autogun, combat knife, sword
Flak armour and helmet
Notes: WS5! And Dodge.

Sergeant Iron Jaw (yes, per the skill)
Combat knife, sword, slugger
Flak armour
Notes: now the bionic arm model. He's got WS4, step aside and iron jaw. And hate vs Guard AND an eye wound...

Sergeant
Combat knife, slugger
Notes: New guy!

Promoted lad
Combat knife, autogun
Notes: 2 wounds! Who needs armour?

Medic
Autopistol, combat knife
Notes: new guy.

HWS
Flamer
Notes: new guy.

Private John Locke
Autogun, combat knife
Notes: badass. BS, WS and I at 4!

Private Prototype (my paint test model )
Autogun, combat knife
Notes: has 1 XP!

Right on. The last game was a succes, having switched autoguns to my Lieutenants. They made good use of their higher BS and still remained effective on the countercharge with their swords.

Sergeant Iron Jaw (w/ Iron Jaw and Step Aside) went level up again, gaining... another skill! Suggestions?

My suggestion?

Quote :

Expert Swordsman: This fighter has been expertly taught in the art of swordsmanship. He may re-roll all missed attacks if he is using a sword in Hand-To-Hand Combat turn that he Charges. This only applies when he is armed with any kind of swords, but not axes, Power Fists or any other Close Combat weapons.

Make sure he Charges (rather than being Charged) and he will be DANGEROUS! Hint... don't send him on the 1st wave, so he doesn't gets shot.

Turns out he can't even take Iron Jaw, because it's a strength skill... meh. I took expert swordsman (and one other I can't think of right now).

Starting to get into some sort of routine with these guys. Since I gave my Lieutenants rifles they have been *dangerous*. They keep picking off troops from a fair distance and 2 BS4 shots at 12" are not to be ignored. But it gets better: with swords and WS4 (WS5 for one of them) they are *also* lethal in close combat. So far, anyway: they've not yet had to fight T4 Orks.

The routine is as follows: pick a good spot, fire away, counterassault. Meaning I try to get the charges, but I'm not afraid to sacrifice a recruit to take an enemy charge, either. Once the enemy is in close combat (even if he wins and takes my OOA recruit), I counter charge and often slay them on the spot.

So I suppose I'm discovering the overall ninja-ness of this squad. Meaning that they play like Cadians! Meatshield up front, badass officers behind them. I'm loving them. Wait till you see the new models I've been doing...

Sergeants may choose from the Combat, Shooting, Techno, Strength, Stealth and Squad’s Skills.

What do you mean they can't get strenght skills...

:p

Wtf...? Well then, I guess he DOES have Iron Jaw! Perhaps I'm confused with Dodge (which is a speed skill).

WTF?!?! Prius!!?!?!?! Love the logo... in the sig! You guys ARE driving me nuts! Hehehe

You need to update YOURS, Mord! But yes... it is kinda cool. Now Prius... remove it: it's dev only!

... I wish.

No.. I keep my logo. You see, in several months, MINE will be a CLASSIC!